Should you tell girls they are pretty?

[Drewish]

Can't we instill a sense of self-worth and a positive image without the need to reference exteriors?

Of course. So long as you feel that you're superior to others in any fashion you can feel a sense of self worth. Think you're smart? Look down on idiots! Think you're good looking? Feel really bad for ugly people. It's not about being the best, it's about being better than most.

[Tyrannical]

Should you tell girls they are pretty?

Naw, it just goes to their head and raises their self esteem. Try calling her enemy/sister/friend pretty instead and then she'll think she is trying to steal you from her.

[Coito ergo sum]

[, aspiring to be ripped and have six pack abs.

...this bit.

Aspiring to be ripped and have six pack abs is a good thing. Being in good physical shape is a good thing.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, I guess it beats "your nose is WAY too big and you've got funny sitcky-out teeth".

...unless you find that pretty.

...a hint of an overbite is appealing...

[Audley Strange]

I agree that things have moved on enormously in the last few decades, however most senior managers are still male, most senior government people are male and in most of the developed world women's pay Is lower than men's for equivalent work. These aren't 'finesse' issues surely?

Odd that no women have so far contributed to this thread. Too busy doing housework I guess.

You know what, perhaps the reason that most senior managers and politicians are male is because there is not the same number of women who have the desire or drive to be so. Certainly all three parties have had been discriminating against men in favour of women to fall into the trap that equality is only achievable through numbers, and do you know what? They don't get the numbers. Same in education. I know of a case where a college tried to encourage young women into training them in car mechanics. They never got much interest in it and after about three years of not filling quotas, abandoned the fucking course rather than opening it up to everyone.

Opportunities are not mandatory. Are we even willing to consider that there may be careers that are not desirable to the majority of either sex, not because of "gender stereotypes" but because we just different?

I'm also suspicious about these claims of women's pay being lower for equivalent work as if again this was some conspiracy, I'm not sure that's the case nor have I seen any conclusive objective non-agendised statistics, though I've heard the claim often enough. Are we even willing to consider that the comparisons are not exactly like for like? Could we consider that men may be more likely to negotiate a better starting or performing salary? I know people of different genders who do the same job who's pay is varied for many different reasons.

I used to, as a lad, watch the shipyards and steel works get out at 4pm, watch the thousands of men leave in droves. When I started work I worked in an insurance company with fifteen other men which was practically unchanged since the Victorian era. When the offices got out it was all men in suits pouring out of those buiildings. Not now, now the shipyards are all but gone, the offices that spill out are predominantly women.

I'm not complaining the Matriarchy is trying to make us men redundant (that would be a stupid claim), I think some of those Baby Boomer Firebrands have painted themselves into a corner where upon their attempts at to reconstruct society in their own flawed image has lead to them considering an incredibly privileged individual being denied access to a private golf club a slight to all womenkind (which it's not) or fucking up their children with such crippling ideology that they can't even say to their daughters that they are pretty without self-flagellation.

All of which, in comparison to states where women are raped stoned or burned to death often for others transgressions, is little more than a finessé issue.

[Coito ergo sum]

There is a sexism issue here isn't there? We don't (usually anyway) tell boys how handsome they are. So why do we tell girls they are pretty? To assure them they will be sexually attractive to males? Even if this is done unconsciously I think it does say something about the sexual politics of these things.

Sorry to be all serious and such..

Over here on this side of the pond, mothers tell their sons they are handsome all the time. "Look at my handsome man!" and such.

Why tell people they are good looking? People like to be good looking. I like it when women find me physically attractive. It's not much different than enjoying that others find you smart, funny and charming.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can't we instill a sense of self-worth and a positive image without the need to reference exteriors?

Of course. So long as you feel that you're superior to others in any fashion you can feel a sense of self worth. Think you're smart? Look down on idiots! Think you're good looking? Feel really bad for ugly people. It's not about being the best, it's about being better than most.

Odd, I was thinking of self-worth, not condescension. I get my words are all there today.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm crap at giving compliments about looks unless I mean it. I know people who do it with everyone no bother to them. I'm not keen of people saying things about my looks, I'm never sure am I supposed to return the compliment. Not only that I have a low opinion of my looks and compliments often make me wince. I'm not from a family where people talk like that. My parents were more likely to put me down than raise me up. I mainly talk to my nieces in a straight up and neutral way, I hate bullshitting them. Though if I notice things they're good at I point them out and encourage it without going overboard.

The key with compliments is to just accept them, and say thanks. It is never required that they be returned. If someone says you look nice, then you say 'thanks! how nice of you to say!" And, that's it. Never refuse the compliment or say you don't deserve it - people tend to believe you if you say you don't deserve it.

[Coito ergo sum]

@ Crumple

Well I disagree. It is not men who perpetuate the superficial obsession about physical appearance, it is advertising and magazines nor is it only targeted towards women. .

snip

Yes, but they started doing that in acknowledgement of the way people are. They did not create it.

People like attractive people. People are drawn to attractive people. That's why advertisers put sex and attractive people in their ads. It wasn't as if people weren't motivated by sex and looks before, and then advertisers said, "let's change humanity here and make them obsessed with sex and physical appearance."

[Audley Strange]

@ Crumple

Well I disagree. It is not men who perpetuate the superficial obsession about physical appearance, it is advertising and magazines nor is it only targeted towards women. .

snip

Yes, but they started doing that in acknowledgement of the way people are. They did not create it.

People like attractive people. People are drawn to attractive people. That's why advertisers put sex and attractive people in their ads. It wasn't as if people weren't motivated by sex and looks before, and then advertisers said, "let's change humanity here and make them obsessed with sex and physical appearance."

Yes, perpetuate, not concoct.

[Rum]

I agree that things have moved on enormously in the last few decades, however most senior managers are still male, most senior government people are male and in most of the developed world women's pay Is lower than men's for equivalent work. These aren't 'finesse' issues surely?

Odd that no women have so far contributed to this thread. Too busy doing housework I guess.

You know what, perhaps the reason that most senior managers and politicians are male is because there is not the same number of women who have the desire or drive to be so. Certainly all three parties have had been discriminating against men in favour of women to fall into the trap that equality is only achievable through numbers, and do you know what? They don't get the numbers. Same in education. I know of a case where a college tried to encourage young women into training them in car mechanics. They never got much interest in it and after about three years of not filling quotas, abandoned the fucking course rather than opening it up to everyone.

Opportunities are not mandatory. Are we even willing to consider that there may be careers that are not desirable to the majority of either sex, not because of "gender stereotypes" but because we just different?

I'm also suspicious about these claims of women's pay being lower for equivalent work as if again this was some conspiracy, I'm not sure that's the case nor have I seen any conclusive objective non-agendised statistics, though I've heard the claim often enough. Are we even willing to consider that the comparisons are not exactly like for like? Could we consider that men may be more likely to negotiate a better starting or performing salary? I know people of different genders who do the same job who's pay is varied for many different reasons.

I used to, as a lad, watch the shipyards and steel works get out at 4pm, watch the thousands of men leave in droves. When I started work I worked in an insurance company with fifteen other men which was practically unchanged since the Victorian era. When the offices got out it was all men in suits pouring out of those buiildings. Not now, now the shipyards are all but gone, the offices that spill out are predominantly women.

I'm not complaining the Matriarchy is trying to make us men redundant (that would be a stupid claim), I think some of those Baby Boomer Firebrands have painted themselves into a corner where upon their attempts at to reconstruct society in their own flawed image has lead to them considering an incredibly privileged individual being denied access to a private golf club a slight to all womenkind (which it's not) or fucking up their children with such crippling ideology that they can't even say to their daughters that they are pretty without self-flagellation.

All of which, in comparison to states where women are raped stoned or burned to death often for others transgressions, is little more than a finessé issue.

Well I wouldn't blame people for not wanting to be senior in anything, but really you are grasping at straws if you think that is why there are fewer women at the so called 'top' of the pile. It's a bit like suggesting that black people don't get to the top either because they would much prefer to still be slaves.

[Coito ergo sum]

@ Crumple

Well I disagree. It is not men who perpetuate the superficial obsession about physical appearance, it is advertising and magazines nor is it only targeted towards women. .

snip

Yes, but they started doing that in acknowledgement of the way people are. They did not create it.

People like attractive people. People are drawn to attractive people. That's why advertisers put sex and attractive people in their ads. It wasn't as if people weren't motivated by sex and looks before, and then advertisers said, "let's change humanity here and make them obsessed with sex and physical appearance."

Yes, perpetuate, not concoct.

The word perpetuate assumes that it would go away without the support. I am not certain that can be established.

[Audley Strange]

No, I think there is a difference between motivation by and obsession with. I agree, I'm not certain either, but what I think is that we are continually making progress beyond it and that advertising will catch up eventually, they are always lagging behind cultural shifts.

[Coito ergo sum]

Advertising has changed dramatically with the times, which goes to show that the culture drives the advertising, not vice versa.

There are threads around here somewhere that focus on dozens of old school advertisements that were overtly sexist without apology. Some are so hilariously inappropriate in today's milieu that we can only be amazed that people thought nothing of them back in the day.

[Animavore]

[, aspiring to be ripped and have six pack abs.

...this bit.

Aspiring to be ripped and have six pack abs is a good thing. Being in good physical shape is a good thing.

Except whether you can have a six pack or not depends on genetics, your body type. That's the problem. If you don't have the right body type you're simply not going to get the classic ripped look perpetrated by Hollywood no matter what you do, at least not without cosmetic surgery so it's perfectly possible a guy with a wrestler type build could end up starving himself believing being skinner Will give him the look he wants when he could be in great physical shape.