So, PZ is a stone-cold racist.

[Rum]

Pappa`s OP did not bother me; I thought it was tasteless, but harmless. PZ and his minions bickering and whining for apologies in a fucking supercilious manner set my teeth on edge , though. Those fucking whiners do not seem to realize that a comment can be ignored, but to fucking carry on and lambast everybody left and right is abuse which brings back bad memories to those of us who were abused, physically or sexually. I remembered being beaten with a belt and then told to apologize, but I was too young to know what I had done wrong. Sexual abuse after that. I tried drinking myself to death but realized maybe I was OK after all. I still have trouble associating with people, and I`m 62. Funny how hard it is sometimes to slip back from being a survivor to a victim. The trigger is always an argument, not a comment or a joke. An argument is done from a position of authority, that is where all the abuse starts. And the body always remembers and overrules the brain.
Whew. I never told anybody this before. I`m OK now. for a while.

All the very best old chum. It is good that you trust the forum enough to share this sort of thing. Another example of what is really is rather than what some people seem to have decided it is.

[MiM]

I don't hate anyone.

I'm just very very angry.

Mostly sad and disappointed here. There has been so much emotional shitmongering everywhere. And not much rational(ia).

But there has been some wonderful and good posts also, maybe something good can come out of this in the end.

Thanks, lp, mousy, wb, robert, mai and others that I am forgetting right now.

[DaveDodo007]

A nest of cockroaches isn't filthy and unhygienic. Turning on the light and exposing a nest of cockroaches...now that's evil and disgusting.

There, see. I said the same thing you did, only with more brevity and panache.

Come on P Z you are here now and I admire your courage for doing so. If you wish to insult us all, well I can’t speak for anyone else but I will not respond in kind because I left the school yard a long time ago. You think I don’t know sexism when I see it, I grew up in the sixties and it was all over the place. My sister was discouraged from studying biology at school after her ‘A’ level success as her teacher said ‘girls don’t do biology.’ She wilted which was a shame as I should have been the second biologist in the family not the first. I never forgot this and trust me science is more sexist than atheism has ever been.

When I became aware of Pappa’s thread I showed my disapproval and was delighted when he apologised. Though are we forever to talk past each other as this is a unique opportunity for dialogue. Nothing will ever be resolved unless we start communicating and I hope that your presence here facilitates this. Even if you feel the need to heap vitriol on me then go ahead as long as we are talking to each other that’s all I want, as Churchill said ‘jaw, jaw is better than war, war.’ Please I beg of you to start a dialogue as I find this rift in the atheist community depressing.

[Thinking Aloud]

Pappa`s OP did not bother me; I thought it was tasteless, but harmless. PZ and his minions bickering and whining for apologies in a fucking supercilious manner set my teeth on edge , though. Those fucking whiners do not seem to realize that a comment can be ignored, but to fucking carry on and lambast everybody left and right is abuse which brings back bad memories to those of us who were abused, physically or sexually. I remembered being beaten with a belt and then told to apologize, but I was too young to know what I had done wrong. Sexual abuse after that. I tried drinking myself to death but realized maybe I was OK after all. I still have trouble associating with people, and I`m 62. Funny how hard it is sometimes to slip back from being a survivor to a victim. The trigger is always an argument, not a comment or a joke. An argument is done from a position of authority, that is where all the abuse starts. And the body always remembers and overrules the brain.
Whew. I never told anybody this before. I`m OK now. for a while.

[Mousy]

I don't really give that much of a shit about all the drama, to be honest. It's a shame it's happened, but it'll blow over soon, and - from my point of view - I'll still be friends with the people I want to be friends with at the end of it. I personally don't care about associating with people who don't like me because I'm part of a certain community. I snip people like that out of my life.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's as simple as not posting, isn't it?

I mean, is he asking for his account to be locked? Or is he asking that his posts all be deleted?

There's more in stomping off. The virtual bedroom door has been well and truly slammed.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I don't really give that much of a shit about all the drama, to be honest. It's a shame it's happened, but it'll blow over soon, and - from my point of view - I'll still be friends with the people I want to be friends with at the end of it. I personally don't care about associating with people who don't like me because I'm part of a certain community. I snip people like that out of my life.

That sound very sensible.

I don't understand it.

[Audley Strange]

A nest of cockroaches isn't filthy and unhygienic. Turning on the light and exposing a nest of cockroaches...now that's evil and disgusting.

There, see. I said the same thing you did, only with more brevity and panache.

No you didn't. I think you are functionally illiterate. How the fuck did you get a degree. Do you have aphasia? You seemed to miss the entirety of my points.

Your group is poisonous and engaged in a hate campaign. I've read the comments, your followers are actually unhinged enough to reveal personal information about people with the intent to do harm. Pappa asked an impertinent tasteless question.

Critising misogyny is not misogyny. You whipping up a bunch of apparently vulnerable young women, who you know, you actually know will be hurt by it for your own benefit, THAT is misogyny, you clod. Pretending you are white-knighting makes it all the more patronising and worse.

To use your shit example, you picked up the cockroaches put them in a bucket and then threw them at people who are terrified of cockroaches for your own gratification. To use another example you're like one of those fundie lunatics who opposes abortion by puts up pictures of aborted fetuses to horrify the anti-abortion crowd to whip them into a frenzy.

It is utterly exploititive. Your "protect these women from rape" attitude would be noble if you didn't keep expose self confessed sexual assault victims to things they find hurtful for your pleasure.

That is entirely what you did.

I'm actually a pretty reasonable guy, I'm just good at mirroring the stupid over-reactionary invective of your posters and aiming it directly back at you.

I don't mind being called a cockroach by a cock.

[hadespussercats]

You know, I've never eaten bugs (intentionally - in the Army and while landscaping, I did eat a lot of bugs unintentionally - never did Jungle Survival), and am not big on trying new things until recently, but that actually looks good.

** TRIGGER WARNING FOR BARFING **

Several years ago we were camping with my dad and a large grasshopper (5cm-ish long 1cm thick at the head) landed on my sister's stroller. Beautiful thing with streaks of gray and dark orange. I caught it so everyone could have a closer look and someone (may have been me) remembered my willingness to eat pretty much anything. I rinsed it off, stuck it between my molars and gave it a chomp. It was pretty tasty, actually. Kind of sweet and tangy, but also had a nuttiness about it. Apples & Walnuts, if i remember my description at the time correctly.

ETA: for some reason i never had it in me to eat the crickets we fed our bearded dragon.

With three times the protein as steak, if I remember correctly from my field biology days. I remember dissecting them and was surprised how much meat was in there. I've never eaten them, but your taste description is spot on from what I recall. Cicadas are also supposed to be good eat'n, but I'll pass on that too.

Back in high school or college, I forget where, we had someone talking about Africa, and they brought up that when they had locust infestations, a lot of people would just grab them on the fly and eat them right there. Also, watch Survivorman (I prefer Les over Bear anyway). He eats a lot of stuff we "civilized folk" consider strange.

Bear seems like a fool who'd break his leg on day one. Les 4eva.

[Skeeve]

PZ has requested his account be de-activated.

As flounces go...meh.

How disappointing.

[cogwheel]

Sorry for bringing back srsbsns... These are some thoughts I really have been trying to get out but they've been too jumbled until now.

What I find interesting is how you as a victim of abuse do not take objection to a joke about rape, but the reaction of others to it though.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that. (obviously speaking for myself here)

One can defend another's right to tell an offensive joke without supporting the content of the joke
One can defend the comedic value of a joke without defending the morality of telling the joke
One can defend another's character without condoning some specific behavior they exhibit(ed)
One can criticise another's response without attacking their reaction

There are so many completely independent concepts that have been conflated in various arguments over the past few days it's mind-boggling.

The decision of whether to tell a joke like that in mixed company is a moral one. Most people weren't defending the morality of posting such a joke in a public forum. Many explicitly condemned it. The defenses I saw were all entirely ethical, not moral. No one is saying it was a good thing that he posted that joke.

The behavior of the pharyngulites is being called into question, not the validity of their emotional reaction. The problem isn't that they were offended, it's that they used that offense to justify an even more broadly offensive, directed, intentional, and fully conscious campaign of retaliation without giving the SLIGHTEST benefit of the doubt to the person/group they were addressing.



Telling a joke about a sensitive topic has some chance of triggering an unknown set of people. That fact is a nebulous thing to consider, and it's natural NOT to consider it. When you don't know any better, the null hypothesis in a community of free speech advocates is "say whatever the fuck you want." It took me at least a year to get from that to "no, in mixed company, you have a responsibility to reflect on your interactions."

Never assume malice when ignorance or incompetence would suffice.

I can't describe how deeply I wish a bit more benefit of the doubt were thrown around in almost every instance of human interaction. And I condemn myself in this regard as well. I can be quite the asshole when I feel trapped/restricted/violated. But once I've taken control back from Trevor*, all I want is to be given a chance to assess the situation rationally. If I begin rationalizing or digging my heels in other ways, please do what you can to correct me. But don't start assassinating my character and those of everyone around me.


* watch this vid (don't get thrown off by the title):

[lilandra]

Pappa-Are you trying to accomplish something by trolling PZ other than laughs at his expense?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Pappa-Are you trying to accomplish something by trolling PZ other than laughs at his expense?

Who trolled who first? We had a bad joke on our forum. PZ had a bad joke for a forum.

[Twoflower]

Pappa-Are you trying to accomplish something by trolling PZ other than laughs at his expense?

Who trolled who first? We had a bad joke on our forum. PZ had a bad joke for a forum.

Just drop it Zilla, we already covered everything, there isn't any reason to continue this dialogue.

[lilandra]

Pappa-Are you trying to accomplish something by trolling PZ other than laughs at his expense?

Who trolled who first? We had a bad joke on our forum. PZ had a bad joke for a forum.

Vengeance trolling?