Losing my patience with Muslim Creationists

[Blitzkrebs]

I’ve spent the past three weeks on Muxlim debating two creationists in particular. At first it was something simple. I posted a review of an apologetics video that struck me as particularly dishonest, primarily because I wanted to let some of the people there know that they weren’t getting the full picture. (Many of the members come from places like Egypt or Turkey where Creationism is taught in textbooks.) I’ve gone out of my way to write almost twenty pages worth of material addressing common misconceptions and even have contacted a scientist who was involved in a Qur’an conference back in the 80’s.

I can’t continue on my own, especially since one of the members has gotten really aggressive lately and attacks almost everything I write. Unfortunately I don’t think he’s actually broken any rules yet, so I can’t report him. Keeping my temper with him is a constant struggle (I’ve caught myself supplementing my responses with rather unfavorable words and scorn at the last minute), but I know that if I leave right now it’ll give the other people a bad impression of science and the evidence supporting evolution.

I need help from two groups of people, those who know Islam and those who know biology. I admit I’ve been pushed to the limits of my knowledge in elaborating what evolution really is about. Above all, this is important for me because as a former Muslim I still feel connected to the community. If some other people can sign up and help me out, that'd be a load off of my chest. I might be forced to give you a hug.

Here’s the discussion:

http://my.muxlim.com/blitzkrebs/blogs/1/

Here's the latested post, where I went through the trouble of contacting an actual marine geologist about the issue. The response of said member (ReflectedLight) was once again ridiculous and depressingly stupid:

http://blogs.muxlim.com/blitzkrebs/more ... j-article/

Extra points for anybody who can give me some ideas for a witty response to his most recent rant:

Yes, everything in the Quraan can be explained by 'normal' things, such as that Muhammad(saws) was able to build a microscope and see that the embryo looked like a leech. Then he was able to build huge equipments to listen to sounds coming from outer space and then learn they come from pulsars, and after all that destroy his equipment so that nobody would find out. At the same time, while fabricating the Quraan, he also damned those who forge Allah(swt) word, and places rules to always ask for evidence regarding any matter. Yes, Muhammad(saws) would indeed be the greatest man to walk the Earth. Not to mention the undisputed uniqueness of the Quraan, that no man can duplicate even 3 verses of.

I suggest you read the Quraan again, and think instead of just accepting everything atheists say.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I'm afraid you can't argue against that level of delusion, Blitzkrebs. The best you can try for is to ignore that particular dickhead and address those that show at least a marginal interest in discussion. Pretend that he isn't there. Post around him and never, ever acknowledge any of his posts or the bollocks in them. If somebody more reasonable quotes him or mentions him, tell them that you are not interested in anything he has to say, speaking of him in the third person only.

As far as the biology of evolution goes, read Dawkin's latest - The Greatest Show on Earth, where he lays out many of the principal arguments for evolution in quite accessible language. Familiarise yourself with a large part of that and you should be able to field any serious arguments. ReflectedLight is too far gone though - everything that he is, is reflection - nothing sinks in, certainly not facts.

[FBM]

I'd love to help you out, Blitz, but neither of those areas are my strong points. Also, keeping myself from becoming equally offensive when dealing wtih people like the Reflectedlight goob isn't one of my strong points.

Edit: Curiosity got the better of me. I signed up and am having a look around. It's creepy there. It's full of...believers.

[Twiglet]

The problem is, you are not challenging an argument but a lifestyle, self image and someones sense of belonging. The personal stakes are very high. What seems like an elementary point for you is a massive shift for them, so they would rather not concede it, however unreasonable that looks.

It's enough to make the points you want to get out there, you are never going to "win" against someone who won't concede anything you say might be true. Getting to the truth isn't part of his agenda. Retaining his identity is.

I wouldn't have the patience, I'd resort to pisstaking after a while, but that will likely lose you influence. You don't need to reply to this guy at all. Does the board have an "ignore" function or friend/foe like here (foe causes posts to be ignored). Ignore him. He will probably still be hanging on your every word even though you can't see what he posts.

[Blitzkrebs]

It's so tempting to respond to him sometimes, since the level of inanity in his posts would be firewood for lulz anywhere else and I'd joyfully tear him down in an instant. I’ve already submitted some of his quotes to FSDT, but last time I checked nothing has gotten through.

This person thinks I've taken evolution as "my lord and savior", accuses scientists of trying to turn everybody into "unbelievers" so they can keep their jobs, thinks the fact that whales breath with lungs is a problem for evolution, considers transitional fossils worthless (he's right for the wrong reasons) and asks instead for fossils with "mutations". In the beginning when I thought still that he was capable of actually thinking, I showed him the results of Lenski's experiments and he dismissed them, insisting that there was no chance of a good mutation happening. (He further “strengthened” his criteria elsewhere by suggesting something isn't a mutation unless it has a defect.) He also demanded evidence of genetic change in the evolution of the lung “every step of the way”, even though he admitted on his profile that he doesn’t even know exactly how DNA works.

He's without a smidgen of a doubt the dumbest person I've ever met. Ever.

Sorry, but I had to vent.

[FBM]

No need to apologize! I've had a brief look around their forum and it seems as if he's the exception. It's annoying as hell trying to navigate the forum, though. I get about a dozen IE 'error' pop-ups every time I refresh or go to another page.

[Blitzkrebs]

Don't worry, soon enough you'll encounter more Yahyites, the kind of people who boldy announce everything they've posted in caps lock and tend to write about the new world order and all of the scandals those evil scientists are wont to commit.

[FBM]

I can hardly wait.


But I'm still getting a dozen error messages for every page.

[Loki_999]

The problem is, you are not challenging an argument but a lifestyle, self image and someones sense of belonging. The personal stakes are very high. What seems like an elementary point for you is a massive shift for them, so they would rather not concede it, however unreasonable that looks.

It's enough to make the points you want to get out there, you are never going to "win" against someone who won't concede anything you say might be true. Getting to the truth isn't part of his agenda. Retaining his identity is.

I wouldn't have the patience, I'd resort to pisstaking after a while, but that will likely lose you influence. You don't need to reply to this guy at all. Does the board have an "ignore" function or friend/foe like here (foe causes posts to be ignored). Ignore him. He will probably still be hanging on your every word even though you can't see what he posts.

^^^ What (s)he said.

I'd probably also be at the stage of trying to start a holy war with him over who created the universe, Allah, or the FSM. Take the piss a bit explaining that the FSM is the one true god etc...

[Rum]

I really think that head to head arguing using logic and rational discourse is a waste of time with people who actually are not willing to consider the rational perspective. That's the whole point. You might as well be speaking a foreign language they don't understand.

I suspect far more fertile ground is to be found with people who are sitting on the fence or who simply have not thought too much about their default religion.

Yesterday in the middle of town here there was a guy standing on a small box preaching very loudly when I popped in at lunch time from my office. He was telling us all as we walked past that we were all wrong and he was right about God. He told us that unless we believed we were all doomed! A woman frind/partner whatever was stood leaning on a post a few feet away, staring at him with devotion. As I walked by she said quietly to me 'read your bible'. I just tuned to her and said 'don't be so silly'.

[Feck]

There is little point in reasoned rational comments after they have demonstrated in inability to think !

resort to calling Muhammed a child rapist and slave owner ......it may not be clever but it is true

[Loki_999]

A woman friend/partner whatever was stood leaning on a post a few feet away, staring at him with devotion. As I walked by she said quietly to me 'read your bible'. I just tuned to her and said 'don't be so silly'.

Ah, diplomacy at its finest.

I would have responded with "I have thanks. Biggest work of fiction since Bill Clinton said that he had no relationship with that woman". OR "I have thanks. That Yahweh eh? What a complete and utter bastard! I'm so glad he doesn't really exist otherwise we'd all be screwed."

[PsychoSerenity]

I really think that head to head arguing using logic and rational discourse is a waste of time with people who actually are not willing to consider the rational perspective. That's the whole point. You might as well be speaking a foreign language they don't understand.

Yeah I think the place to start might be to give creationists lessons in logic and reasoning, right from the very beginning - ancient Greece and onwards. Show them the value of asking questions. Get them to understand the concept of empirical evidence. From there you can explain why the scientific method works. Only when they have accepted that, can you expect them to accept anything the science says.

But it'd be an awful lot of work, and you still wouldn't necessarily succeed - so I'm not volunteering any time soon.

[Blitzkrebs]

I wonder if I should invite ReflectedLight to Rationalia... I bet it'd be the first time he'd be confronted with a multitude of people willing to call on him for outright stupidity as opposed to just walking away with a dimmer view of humanity. I'd also like to know if there's any way I can form a sensible reply to Maryum33's statements about the sinus:

as for the sinuses, it's important to make something clear ... in a normal healthy individual all the paranasal sinuses are sterile & the mucus they produce is actively propelled by the ciliated epithelium towards the opening - gravity plays no role in the movement of mucus in healthy individuals .. the way everything comes together is amazing actually, the composition of the mucus, how its volume is highly regulated by the autonomic nervous system to conform to our needs ... so healthy individuals have no problem with the design of the sinuses or the position of the openings.

"The fact that they don’t work properly is affirmed by their susceptibility to infections and clogging (I know this from personal experience), when it would be so simple for a designer to arrange the exit of both in a fashion that doesn’t work against gravity in an act of special creation."

Don't work properly ? do you know what their work is ? They have a variety of functions which includes secretion of antibody containing mucus (which actually protects the respiratory system from being infected by harmful organisms & prevents irritation by dust and pollutants), other functions include voice resonance & making the skull lighter because they are air-filled cavities. So actually in the majority of people they function just fine.

Yes they are susceptible to infection (like anything else in the human body) but that has nothing to do with the position of the ostium "working against gravity" .. some people suffer from frontal sinusitis although the ostium of the frontal sinus is directed downward.
If you're interested you can check the causes of sinusitis here ..
http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/sinusi ... auses.html

A fact of life is that illness exists, even though our bodies have so many protective mechanisms in place. So you can’t blame illness or death on ‘bad design’ .. who said life was meant to be perfect & eternal ?

“The position of the maxillary sinuses is exactly what we would expect to find if our bodies underwent a transition from a quadrupedal gait to a bipedal one.”

I find that comment interesting because using the same logic, then the position of the frontal, ethmoid & sphenoid sinuses is exactly what we would expect to find in bodies which have always been bipedal.

http://blogs.muxlim.com/blitzkrebs/one-final-swing/

Unike RL, she's actually very intelligent and polite, if misled.

[Rum]

I wonder if I should invite ReflectedLight to Rationalia... I bet it'd be the first time he'd be confronted with a multitude of people willing to call on him for outright stupidity as opposed to just walking away with a dimmer view of humanity. I'd also like to know if there's any way I can form a sensible reply to Maryum33's statements about the sinus:

By all means do! :twisted: