How Money Works

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Re: How Money Works

Post by apophenia » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:20 am




Meh. So bloody typical. People don't like the message, so they take aim at the messenger. And I don't know what Seth's deal is — he seems to be talking out of a six-sided mouth: economies don't have to be fair, but they DO have to be fair to the Japanese who don't want to spend and respect their wishes — Seth, do you even realize the internally inconsistent nature of your argument?

I think probably the most perceptive comment on Krugman was the following:
dave_dave wrote:I believe the faulty assumption in the original example is that each coupon has to be for a fixed time frame, regardless of how low the scrip supply dips. A truly perceptive individual in the coop would see this and say, "hey, for one scrip ill babysit for two nights as opposed to one, because i really need those coupons". Another person may see this and say, "iill give you an even better deal!". At this point the individuals are free to bargain over the babysitting time each coupon is worth. Each would approach the "hoarder" and offer their babysitting deal, now the hoarder can get more worth out of each scrip than he put in, making them more likely to spend scrip again.

Eventually, through bargaining, the amount of babysitting time per scrip should settle on a value that may be different than the original, say two nights, rather than one, but this would have the benefit of keeping scrip in circulation with out having to issue more of it.
Which of course is the eternal debate between Keynesians and Hayekians, market regulation versus free markets.

What I think gets over-looked in the rather soft sciences of economics and political theory is that most arguments center around a pair of conflicting but mutually necessary values. Those are the values of fairness (the bulk of capitalistic rhetoric) and the value of charity (socialism). The conservative makes the mistake in believing that if we can arrive at the proper formula which takes fairness into account in the proper way, then charity need not be attended to. This is false. This is false because, as a species, our evolutionary success depended on a synthesis between these competing values. They are both necessary — at a genetic level — for us to flourish and prosper as a species. Any politic which neglects one for the other, or tries to account for one with the other, will fail. And with it, perhaps the entire species. Many pie-eyed liberals expect science and human goodness to prevail in our war against impending climate catastrophe. I think they are naively deluded. We face a potential extinction event of the first order, which will probably put an end to the dominance of the human species, to be replaced by something else. Sacrificing one or the other value, for petty political purposes, pushes us, as a species, that much closer to extinction. We are no longer fighting for "more take home pay" or "a lower tax rate". We are fighting for the survival of the species. And both sides are on the wrong side.


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Re: How Money Works

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:30 am

Crumple wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Crumple wrote:"Eventually, of course, the co-op issued too much scrip, leading to different problems ..."
- P. Kruggman.

Could someone please, ask him, or explain what he meant by the three little dots since we appear to be at that part of the story right now? :coffee:
No, we're not. You stopped reading too soon.

But to answer your question, if you issue too much scrip then there aren't enough babysitters. So you have to collect some, in dues usually, and burn it.
The article was written in 1998. I must have stopped half way through the second reading? :smoke:
Economics stopped being true after 1998?
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Atheist-Lite » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:37 am

Schneibster wrote:
Crumple wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Crumple wrote:"Eventually, of course, the co-op issued too much scrip, leading to different problems ..."
- P. Kruggman.

Could someone please, ask him, or explain what he meant by the three little dots since we appear to be at that part of the story right now? :coffee:
No, we're not. You stopped reading too soon.

But to answer your question, if you issue too much scrip then there aren't enough babysitters. So you have to collect some, in dues usually, and burn it.
The article was written in 1998. I must have stopped half way through the second reading? :smoke:
Economics stopped being true after 1998?
It suffers from a certain truthiness without ever actually being true. The only concrete rules appear to be those which say there are no concrete rules. After all the number of bottletops in play can range from zero to infinity, and beyond going bothways and up and down. Then there is the influential dynamics of irrational human behaviour, bluff and counter bluff regarding paying up bottletops at a later time. That'll end in a real fight between opposing forces of idiocy....we're not dealing with the rational mind when the blame and guilt game is in play. :smoke:
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:39 am

Crumple wrote:It suffers from a certain truthiness without ever actually being true.
You just make this shit up. Admit it.
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Atheist-Lite » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:45 am

Schneibster wrote:
Crumple wrote:It suffers from a certain truthiness without ever actually being true.
You just make this shit up. Admit it.
That's a good summation of my stance regarding economics. :coffee:
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:46 am

Your cynicism makes you a tool of the sociopathic rich.
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Atheist-Lite » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:05 am

Schneibster wrote:Your cynicism makes you a tool of the sociopathic rich.
Perhaps, time will tell? Real social mobility is the key to these things? The very rich are a extraneous function of slowing down social mobility IMO.
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:13 am

No, we don't need time to tell anything. The sociopathic rich want all the money because they just want it, and if they get it they destroy the economy. That's what's happening right now; they've got all the money and they won't spend it. They can't; they're sociopathic and monomaniacal about money, that's how they got rich. They've paid to undermine economics and to infect people with cynicism so that we blame some nebulous "system" instead of them.

It's just like if some idiot collected up all the scrip from the babysitting coop so no one had any.
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Atheist-Lite » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:23 am

Schneibster wrote:No, we don't need time to tell anything. The sociopathic rich want all the money because they just want it, and if they get it they destroy the economy. That's what's happening right now; they've got all the money and they won't spend it. They can't; they're sociopathic and monomaniacal about money, that's how they got rich. They've paid to undermine economics and to infect people with cynicism so that we blame some nebulous "system" instead of them.

It's just like if some idiot collected up all the scrip from the babysitting coop so no one had any.
Yes, but how smart are the other babysitters to have tolerated that happening? Did it occur in secret? Seems a stack of idiots are in play here to keep the paper mill busy? :smoke:
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:40 am

You're losing track of the analogy.

You'd need a propaganda campaign about how the co-op was trying to tax everyone's babysitting vouchers.
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Atheist-Lite » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:05 am

Schneibster wrote:You're losing track of the analogy.

You'd need a propaganda campaign about how the co-op was trying to tax everyone's babysitting vouchers.
Needless variables with regards the crux of the game. I'd almost be tempted to consider a finer model but occams razor is out. :read:
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Drewish » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:36 pm

Crumple wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Crumple wrote:"Eventually, of course, the co-op issued too much scrip, leading to different problems ..."
- P. Kruggman.

Could someone please, ask him, or explain what he meant by the three little dots since we appear to be at that part of the story right now? :coffee:
No, we're not. You stopped reading too soon.

But to answer your question, if you issue too much scrip then there aren't enough babysitters. So you have to collect some, in dues usually, and burn it.
The article was written in 1998. I must have stopped half way through the second reading? :smoke:

Don't you understand?! Economics is an ETERNAL TRUTH! And the things that should be done to fix it are constant and unchanging, and exactly the opposite of those evil ibertardians think. That's the only rational solution, unlike the blind ideologies held by those that disagree with me!!!
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Hermit » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:49 pm

Schneibster wrote:The sociopathic rich want all the money because they just want it, and if they get it they destroy the economy. That's what's happening right now; they've got all the money and they won't spend it.
Hardly any money is stored under the mattress to quietly rot away. It is invested in things like factories, service providers, real estate that is rented out, and so on. The rich get richer mainly by buying and selling stuff. Their money keeps circulating all the time.
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Atheist-Lite » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:31 pm

Seraph wrote:
Schneibster wrote:The sociopathic rich want all the money because they just want it, and if they get it they destroy the economy. That's what's happening right now; they've got all the money and they won't spend it.
Hardly any money is stored under the mattress to quietly rot away. It is invested in things like factories, service providers, real estate that is rented out, and so on. The rich get richer mainly by buying and selling stuff. Their money keeps circulating all the time.

Having access to the gold standard printing presses means the USA can always print some more if necessary (or not). :coffee:
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Re: How Money Works

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:21 pm

I found this article more enlightening. :smoke:

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