Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:19 pm

Robert_S wrote:And how much would it have cost to have an accountant and/or a lawyer take an hour or two to have a look at and/or listen to the "agreements" and point out any ambiguities or common mistakes that could lead to problems down the road?
How much would it have cost to have had the most amateurly-worded WRITTEN agreement, that could have been kept someplace safer than an online email inbox, or computer-based webmail client inbox? How much would it have cost to have asked Josh for the store's books even just ONCE in the three years he was running it for a brief looking over by an accountant?

I'll bet it would have cost less than all the money that went towards Josh and Maureen's recreation and home improvements, which is now in dispute by Richard/RDFRS - and less than the money subsequently funnelled into litigation that was never really going anywhere from the start, because of how shoddily things were done in the first place...
Cormac wrote:There are many reasons one might initiate a case that one might know one probably won't be able to win. For example, from the point of view of governance of the Foundation, it might be that there was a need to demonstrate that the rights of the Foundation were pursued up to the point where it became apparent that the case should be dropped.
By the sounds of things, it could have been argued that the case was so poor substantively that it should have been dropped before it was picked up in the first place. And as to RDFRS's point-of-view of making a point (essentially slamming and locking that stable door for effect, when the horse has already ambled at a leisurely pace fifty-odd miles down a country road) - as I've already stated - it's a difficult call to make as to how much responsibility for Josh's behaviour they should shoulder. He was an independent contractor, working on a site for Richard with no DIRECT legal affiliation with RDFRS. It's difficult to gauge how much responsibility Richard/RDFRS should bear for how the store's proceeds were being used by Josh and Maureen, and at what stage they should feel the need to go through the motions of litigation in a simple attempt to save face.
But for me, I wouldn't initiate the case unless I had first reviewed all the evidence I had, and could conclude a reasonable chance of success existed. Then, I'd want to discover all relevant documents held by the other side, at which point, I'd do another review to see whether or not the chance of success had improved or disimproved.
To be honest, I don't think Richard/RDFRS even bothered with the first step, there. Again - how much would it cost to have someone help them get their story straight, and check what supporting documents they had prior to initiating litigation? Never mind getting to "am I likely to succeed in this litigation?" - Richard/RDFRS didn't seem to get much past "what is our case to present, here, exactly?"

In what kind of well decided case do you get to the ninth month of litigation only to find yourself going: "Oops, no has documents, no rly has case... kthxbai!" ?

And it's all so depressingly par for the course. These things weren't neglected because of financial or time constraints - but all because of the patent web of incompetence, negligence, unaccountability and unprofessionalism within RDFRS. And THAT is some bad PR right there that won't be so easily hand-waved away. RDFRS is poorly organised and badly infested with complete fucking incompetents (up to and including Richard himself) - but then, we knew that already... :bored:

But well played, Richard and RDFRS - well played... :coffee:
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And go the fools among.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:48 pm

New avatar a further tribute to Chalkers.... :hehe:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:54 pm

This thread is getting serious and needs moah cameltoes - kthx.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by chalkers » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:05 pm

lordpasternack wrote:New avatar a further tribute to Chalkers.... :hehe:
Thank you.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Pensioner » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:43 pm

chalkers wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:New avatar a further tribute to Chalkers.... :hehe:
Thank you.
The Richard Dawkins forum evolved into a animal with three arsoles, Dawkins and you two. Fuck off.
“I wish no harm to any human being, but I, as one man, am going to exercise my freedom of speech. No human being on the face of the earth, no government is going to take from me my right to speak, my right to protest against wrong, my right to do everything that is for the benefit of mankind. I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.”

John Maclean (Scottish socialist) speech from the Dock 1918.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:48 pm

I'd like to clarify that I mean no bitterness in my ribbing of Chalkers. He's at least had the good grace to apologise for his part in shit-stirring at the time of forumgate, and admitted that things are a bit of a mess in RDFRS management. I'm willing to let a bit go as water under the bridge. I just can't resist being facetious, all the same. :tup:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Tigger » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

lordpasternack wrote:New avatar a further tribute to Chalkers.... :hehe:
I recognise that! :ask: Do I?
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:52 pm

Tigger wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:New avatar a further tribute to Chalkers.... :hehe:
I recognise that! :ask: Do I?
I couldn't possibly say. :tea:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Cormac » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:29 am

lordpasternack wrote:
Robert_S wrote:And how much would it have cost to have an accountant and/or a lawyer take an hour or two to have a look at and/or listen to the "agreements" and point out any ambiguities or common mistakes that could lead to problems down the road?
How much would it have cost to have had the most amateurly-worded WRITTEN agreement, that could have been kept someplace safer than an online email inbox, or computer-based webmail client inbox? How much would it have cost to have asked Josh for the store's books even just ONCE in the three years he was running it for a brief looking over by an accountant?

I'll bet it would have cost less than all the money that went towards Josh and Maureen's recreation and home improvements, which is now in dispute by Richard/RDFRS - and less than the money subsequently funnelled into litigation that was never really going anywhere from the start, because of how shoddily things were done in the first place...
Cormac wrote:There are many reasons one might initiate a case that one might know one probably won't be able to win. For example, from the point of view of governance of the Foundation, it might be that there was a need to demonstrate that the rights of the Foundation were pursued up to the point where it became apparent that the case should be dropped.
By the sounds of things, it could have been argued that the case was so poor substantively that it should have been dropped before it was picked up in the first place. And as to RDFRS's point-of-view of making a point (essentially slamming and locking that stable door for effect, when the horse has already ambled at a leisurely pace fifty-odd miles down a country road) - as I've already stated - it's a difficult call to make as to how much responsibility for Josh's behaviour they should shoulder. He was an independent contractor, working on a site for Richard with no DIRECT legal affiliation with RDFRS. It's difficult to gauge how much responsibility Richard/RDFRS should bear for how the store's proceeds were being used by Josh and Maureen, and at what stage they should feel the need to go through the motions of litigation in a simple attempt to save face.
But for me, I wouldn't initiate the case unless I had first reviewed all the evidence I had, and could conclude a reasonable chance of success existed. Then, I'd want to discover all relevant documents held by the other side, at which point, I'd do another review to see whether or not the chance of success had improved or disimproved.
To be honest, I don't think Richard/RDFRS even bothered with the first step, there. Again - how much would it cost to have someone help them get their story straight, and check what supporting documents they had prior to initiating litigation? Never mind getting to "am I likely to succeed in this litigation?" - Richard/RDFRS didn't seem to get much past "what is our case to present, here, exactly?"

In what kind of well decided case do you get to the ninth month of litigation only to find yourself going: "Oops, no has documents, no rly has case... kthxbai!" ?

And it's all so depressingly par for the course. These things weren't neglected because of financial or time constraints - but all because of the patent web of incompetence, negligence, unaccountability and unprofessionalism within RDFRS. And THAT is some bad PR right there that won't be so easily hand-waved away. RDFRS is poorly organised and badly infested with complete fucking incompetents (up to and including Richard himself) - but then, we knew that already... :bored:

But well played, Richard and RDFRS - well played... :coffee:
The only reason I can see to proceed with that case would be that NOT pursuing it could cause the performance as governers/trustees of the Foundation could come into question. Therefore, the objective would have been achieved (possibly) by pursuing it. (Of course, pusruing an unwinnable case might just reveal in more clarity what they might be trying to defend).

As Trustees of a Charitable Trust, there are significant obligations and responsibilities to do with protecting trust resources.

However, I sincerely doubt if all the records of emails are lost. They are on a server/harddrive somewhere. Data is rarely completely lost. I'm surprised that they haven't been forensically recovered. For that amount of money, it is worth it.
Last edited by Cormac on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Cormac » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:31 am

Pensioner wrote:
chalkers wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:New avatar a further tribute to Chalkers.... :hehe:
Thank you.
The Richard Dawkins forum evolved into a animal with three arsoles, Dawkins and you two. Fuck off.
Pen, you make me smile mate. That was a funny comment. :)

(Although, I am still reasonably disposed to RD, warts and all).
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:18 am

I'm surprised that they haven't been forensically recovered. For that amount of money, it is worth it.
You're expecting a group of people who didn't bother getting any kind of written agreement in the first place, and didn't ask to see accounts once in the three years that Josh was running the store, to have considered or gone to the effort of having what thin documentation they do have forensically recovered? :coffee:

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Robert_S » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:03 pm

lordpasternack wrote:
I'm surprised that they haven't been forensically recovered. For that amount of money, it is worth it.
You're expecting a group of people who didn't bother getting any kind of written agreement in the first place, and didn't ask to see accounts once in the three years that Josh was running the store, to have considered or gone to the effort of having what thin documentation they do have forensically recovered? :coffee:
I reference here or there to the hypothetical verbal agreement might at least make someone look better, or maybe not. :tea:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:45 pm

I hadn't thought about this lawsuit for many months.... so I googled it...wow - I didn't realize it had been dismissed with prejudice and Dawkins got smacked for failing to comply with discovery requests.... http://dawkinssuestimonen.com/

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Jason » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:02 pm

Well you see this one guy's hard drive failed, and he apparently didn't keep copies on his email server. RD had his email account closed by Oxford. And this woman has been out of contact with everyone from RDF since 2009. :what:

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:24 pm

PordFrefect wrote:Well you see this one guy's hard drive failed, and he apparently didn't keep copies on his email server. RD had his email account closed by Oxford. And this woman has been out of contact with everyone from RDF since 2009. :what:
I didn't read through any of the arguments made, but it sounds shaky.

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