Cavemen: what did they do in their spare time?

[Svartalf]

Soap = animal fat + vegetable ash... easy to obtain after mastery of fire.

History would not agree with you there.
For example : the old time Romans did not have soap, in spite of having fire and a lot of very sophisticated stuff. They used to use human urine to wash clothes with (urine contains ammonia, which has a cleaning action).

It wasn't their custom, but soap has been known since prehistoric times in the middle east.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Soap = animal fat + vegetable ash... easy to obtain after mastery of fire.

History would not agree with you there.
For example : the old time Romans did not have soap, in spite of having fire and a lot of very sophisticated stuff. They used to use human urine to wash clothes with (urine contains ammonia, which has a cleaning action).

Just because one society didn't use soap doesn't mean the others couldn't. Just sayin'.

[Blind groper]

Just because one society didn't use soap doesn't mean the others couldn't. Just sayin'.

It is the "easy to obtain" statement I was disputing.

The old time Romans had cement and built concrete structures, but they could not make soap. That implies that soap is not that "easy to obtain" after discovering the use of fire.

[JimC]

From a Wiki page on the history of soap:

Early history



The earliest recorded evidence of the production of soap-like materials dates back to around 2800 BC in ancient Babylon.[5] In the reign of Nabonidus (556–539 BC), a recipe for soap consisted of uhulu [ashes], cypress [oil] and sesame [seed oil] "for washing the stones for the servant girls".[6] A formula for soap consisting of water, alkali, and cassia oil was written on a Babylonian clay tablet around 2200 BC.
The Ebers papyrus (Egypt, 1550 BC) indicates the ancient Egyptians bathed regularly and combined animal and vegetable oils with alkaline salts to create a soap-like substance. Egyptian documents mention a soap-like substance was used in the preparation of wool for weaving.[citation needed]
[edit]Roman history
The word sapo, Latin for soap, first appears in Pliny the Elder's Historia Naturalis, which discusses the manufacture of soap from tallow and ashes, but the only use he mentions for it is as a pomade for hair; he mentions rather disapprovingly that the men of the Gauls and Germans were more likely to use it than their female counterparts.[7] Aretaeus of Cappadocia, writing in the first century AD, observes among "Celts, which are men called Gauls, those alkaline substances that are made into balls, called soap".[8]
A popular belief claims soap takes its name from a supposed Mount Sapo, where animal sacrifices were supposed to have taken place; tallow from these sacrifices would then have mixed with ashes from fires associated with these sacrifices and with water to produce soap, but there is no evidence of a Mount Sapo within the Roman world and no evidence for the apocryphal story. The Latin word sapo simply means "soap"; it was likely borrowed from an early Germanic language and is cognate with Latin sebum, "tallow", which appears in Pliny the Elder's account.[9] Roman animal sacrifices usually burned only the bones and inedible entrails of the sacrificed animals; edible meat and fat from the sacrifices were taken by the humans rather than the gods.
Zosimos of Panopolis, circa 300 AD, describes soap and soapmaking.[10] Galen describes soap-making using lye and prescribes washing to carry away impurities from the body and clothes. According to Galen, the best soaps were Germanic, and soaps from Gaul were second best. This is a reference to true soap in antiquity.[10]
[edit]Islamic history
A 12th century Islamic document has the world's first extant description of the process of soap production.[11] It mentions the key ingredient, alkali, which later becomes crucial to modern chemistry, derived from al-qaly or "ashes".
By the 13th century, the manufacture of soap in the Islamic world had become virtually industrialized, with sources in Nablus,Fes, Damascus, and Aleppo.[citation needed]
[edit]Medieval history
Soapmakers in Naples were members of a guild in the late sixth century,[12] and in the eighth century, soap-making was well known in Italy and Spain.[13] The Carolingian capitulary De Villis, dating to around 800, representing the royal will of Charlemagne, mentions soap as being one of the products the stewards of royal estates are to tally. Soapmaking is mentioned both as "women's work" and as the produce of "good workmen" alongside other necessities such as the produce of carpenters, blacksmiths, and bakers.

[Jason]

Masturbated

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Problem with recorded history is it has just started in comparison with the time humans have been around.

[Coito ergo sum]

Soap = animal fat + vegetable ash... easy to obtain after mastery of fire.

History would not agree with you there.
For example : the old time Romans did not have soap, in spite of having fire and a lot of very sophisticated stuff. They used to use human urine to wash clothes with (urine contains ammonia, which has a cleaning action).

And, I'm sure that some tribes of cavemen learned how to make soap, but that wasn't the issue being bandied about. The issue was why cavepeople are often depicted as being kind of dirty. I think it's probably fair to say that they're dirtier than we are. If you send modern humans out in the woods to live a rustic life for a long period of time, where you would be cleaning yourself out of water from a lack or stream, and doing hard laborious work, labor intensive work, involving dirt and such, the level of dirtiness would be higher. It probably isn't a stretch that they were not as concerned with wiping stuff off too much.

[Coito ergo sum]

Soap = animal fat + vegetable ash... easy to obtain after mastery of fire.

History would not agree with you there.
For example : the old time Romans did not have soap, in spite of having fire and a lot of very sophisticated stuff. They used to use human urine to wash clothes with (urine contains ammonia, which has a cleaning action).

And, I'm sure that some tribes of cavemen learned how to make soap, but that wasn't the issue being bandied about. The issue was why cavepeople are often depicted as being kind of dirty. I think it's probably fair to say that they're dirtier than we are. If you send modern humans out in the woods to live a rustic life for a long period of time, where you would be cleaning yourself out of water from a lack or stream, and doing hard laborious work, labor intensive work, involving dirt and such, the level of dirtiness would be higher. It probably isn't a stretch that they were not as concerned with wiping stuff off too much.

[Pappa]

The "vote with your feet" principle is common to hunter-gatherer societies. Nobody in the group wields enough power or controls enough resources to force a person to stay.

Social ties are very strong, though. Humans are gregarious animals, and social connections are vital. It would be a very rare tribesman willing to walk away. Especially since the next tribe is likely to be hostile and regard the stranger as dinner.

Not from what I've read. I don't recall the author but I read a paper once about the "vote with your feet" principle in hunter-gatherer societies and how it's fairly common. I'll try to find the source.

[Pappa]

I watched some show that was on one of the nerd channels, like discovery or something about stone age people. They had a bunch of people in reality-show style go out in the woods and they had to live like neolithic folks. The show was short lived and sucked ass, but the concept was cool. I wish they would try it again. The problem with it was they ended it making it full of soap operatic drama between the tribe members. One funny part, though, was how quick some of the modern folks went bat shit bananas from being without any modern conveniences. It was almost embarrassing. Like, if you know you're only going out there for a few weeks, can't you tough it out? Some of them quit after like 3 days. LOL

Not "I, Caveman" by any chance? I just noticed it's on TV now.

[Coito ergo sum]

I watched some show that was on one of the nerd channels, like discovery or something about stone age people. They had a bunch of people in reality-show style go out in the woods and they had to live like neolithic folks. The show was short lived and sucked ass, but the concept was cool. I wish they would try it again. The problem with it was they ended it making it full of soap operatic drama between the tribe members. One funny part, though, was how quick some of the modern folks went bat shit bananas from being without any modern conveniences. It was almost embarrassing. Like, if you know you're only going out there for a few weeks, can't you tough it out? Some of them quit after like 3 days. LOL

Not "I, Caveman" by any chance? I just noticed it's on TV now.

I don't recall the title, but it was at least a year ago. I just remember it tried to be all survivor-like, only with no games, just the constant navel-gazing about each other's feelings, and juvenile passive-aggressive spats about who is rude to whom.

[Pappa]

I watched some show that was on one of the nerd channels, like discovery or something about stone age people. They had a bunch of people in reality-show style go out in the woods and they had to live like neolithic folks. The show was short lived and sucked ass, but the concept was cool. I wish they would try it again. The problem with it was they ended it making it full of soap operatic drama between the tribe members. One funny part, though, was how quick some of the modern folks went bat shit bananas from being without any modern conveniences. It was almost embarrassing. Like, if you know you're only going out there for a few weeks, can't you tough it out? Some of them quit after like 3 days. LOL

Not "I, Caveman" by any chance? I just noticed it's on TV now.

I don't recall the title, but it was at least a year ago. I just remember it tried to be all survivor-like, only with no games, just the constant navel-gazing about each other's feelings, and juvenile passive-aggressive spats about who is rude to whom.

Yeah, seems like the same one.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's a cool idea, if they would concentrate on the science, and not make it "Survivor Neolithic."

[Tero]

Soap made from ashes and soap is rather coarse and abrasive. I think people used it as needed but not so often as we do.

Handmade soap would have excess fat over lye. Not maybe handy to store.

The soap industry is from the 1400s.

Just boomarking this for myself. The general use of soap is dated 800s for most of Europe
http://www.saunalahti.fi/arnoldus/saippua.html

[Svartalf]

Soap made from ashes and soap is rather coarse and abrasive. I think people used it as needed but not so often as we do.

Handmade soap would have excess fat over lye. Not maybe handy to store.

The soap industry is from the 1400s.

Just boomarking this for myself. The general use of soap is dated 800s for most of Europe
http://www.saunalahti.fi/arnoldus/saippua.html

European soap industry is from the 1400s... syria had it several centuries before, just go to Aleppo... they claim (and it's impossible to tell rightly or not) that Cleopatra and Zenobia endorsed their product.

Then again, modern soap certainly is a neolithic/early bronze age invention.... the ve oil used in it needs agriculture.