Stand Your Ground claimed as defense by intruder

[Strontium Dog]

I live in the UK and I know lots of people who have been burgled, and none who have been subjected to a home invasion. Home invasions are super rare here.

My girlfriend's parents' home was burgled once many years ago while she was home alone; however, I couldn't call that a home invasion as she was ignoring the incessant ringing of the doorbell, and the would-be thieves doubtless assumed the property to be empty. When she eventually came downstairs they were hiding behind the furniture... some invaders they turned out to be

[pErvinalia]

If only she had a gun, she could have pulped the fuckers!

[Seth]

Your nation is full of people are so terrified of their neighbours, police, government, gangs, terrorist, blacks, hispanics, jews, teachers Marxists and science that many of them can only walk out of the fucking house armed to the teeth. You imprison more citizens than any other nation on earth and you spend more on *ahem* "Defence" than most of the globe combined. We're the cowards because we don't need guns to feel safe?

Problem is you're NOT safe. And our defense spending kept your ass from having to speak German or Russian, so yeah, it's you.

Yeah no one is safe and all the guns in the world won't change that.We just don't live in perpetual fear here.

Correct, life is dangerous. However, taking guns away from the law-abiding serves only to make things much worse. It's a dangerous world and being prepared to cope with varying life-threatening emergencies is just part of living intelligently. Criminal violence is just one of the threats out there. I have chemical protection gear and gas masks too, because I live near a railroad. Good thing because last year a leaking tank car full of acid rolled right through town and ended up parked a mile south for a week, and you could feel the acid vapors in the air. I think I've already related my close shave escape from death by chlorine-gas release in Florida.

Do you have a first aid kit, fire extinguisher and a lock on your door? My carrying a gun is no different than any of those precautions.

[Audley Strange]

Your nation is full of people are so terrified of their neighbours, police, government, gangs, terrorist, blacks, hispanics, jews, teachers Marxists and science that many of them can only walk out of the fucking house armed to the teeth. You imprison more citizens than any other nation on earth and you spend more on *ahem* "Defence" than most of the globe combined. We're the cowards because we don't need guns to feel safe?

Problem is you're NOT safe. And our defense spending kept your ass from having to speak German or Russian, so yeah, it's you.

Yeah no one is safe and all the guns in the world won't change that.We just don't live in perpetual fear here.

Correct, life is dangerous. However, taking guns away from the law-abiding serves only to make things much worse. It's a dangerous world and being prepared to cope with varying life-threatening emergencies is just part of living intelligently. Criminal violence is just one of the threats out there. I have chemical protection gear and gas masks too, because I live near a railroad. Good thing because last year a leaking tank car full of acid rolled right through town and ended up parked a mile south for a week, and you could feel the acid vapors in the air. I think I've already related my close shave escape from death by chlorine-gas release in Florida.

Do you have a first aid kit, fire extinguisher and a lock on your door? My carrying a gun is no different than any of those precautions.

No, no and yes. Look I have absolutely no problem with American Gun laws and in fact I've come to the conclusion that the "gun nut" brigade are often the least likely to use them irresponsibly, since they have made the weapon a fetish they are likely to get right into the whole ritual and mythology, where as the actual nuts who are using them in spree kills and the like are more likely to be mental or are wannabes who have taken their cues from action films.

I just think it comical that anyone from such an extremely paranoid nation would consider us cowards.

[Collector1337]

I just think it comical that anyone from such an extremely paranoid nation would consider us cowards.

What education, training, and licensure do you have to call even one person, let alone an entire country, "paranoid?"

[Coito ergo sum]

The "stand your ground" concept is misty and murky.

It isn't. It means that if you have a right of self-defense, you don't have to retreat first (even if retreating would be a reasonable option). That's what it means.

They are saying that Zimmerman can't use that as a defence, because he chased Martin.

Nobody is saying that. They did not need to rely on Stand Your Ground in the Zimmerman case because when he is on his back on the ground being beaten, nobody is saying he could have run away.

The prosecution never alleged that Zimmerman "chased" Martin, and nobody said that Zimmerman wasn't entitled to stand his ground by virtue of "chasing" Martin. Who is the "they" that you think are saying this?

The principle being that you can't go after someone, and then claim that you aren't obliged to retreat from aggression.

If you "go after" someone, then you don't get to claim self defense. So SYG never arises because for SYG to arise you have to be in a position to justifiably use force in self defense.

If a homeowner goes after a burglar with lethal intent, is the burglar obliged to let himself be killed?

The general rule is, I think, that someone may shoot a burglar if the burglar has entered the home. If, however, the burglar has left the home, one may not chase him down and kill him.

Depends how they worded the law.

Every legal question depends on the wording of the law.

It would be surprising, if this situation had not been dealt with when the law was debated and passed.
It's not rocket science.

No it isn't rocket science, but in any common law country, the application of common law principles and interpretation of statutes to given circumstances can always create legal issues for later resolution.

[Coito ergo sum]

It would be surprising, if this situation had not been dealt with when the law was debated and passed.
It's not rocket science.

Depends on the state, I guess. Under Florida law there is a legal presumption that anyone breaking into your home means you harm. Since it's a presumption it cannot be argued, meaning the perp can't claim he was only after a loaf of bread or didn't intend to harm anyone or was just drunk. If you break into someone's home you're fair game, full stop. The resident is also indemnified against any civil action, so the perp can't sue, no matter what extenuating circumstances might exist.

Now that differs from stand your ground, though SYG is part of the same legislation. All stand your ground does is remove the legal requirement to retreat when threatened. You still must have a "reasonable" fear of death or great bodily harm in order to justify lethal force.

You always get problems and abnormalities, when the law departs from the real world.
Making burglars fair game means that burglars will know that, and take precautions.
If the law presumes that burglars mean you harm, then the burglars will probably presume that YOU mean THEM harm.
I would, anyway. You'd have to be pretty crazy going burgling without a gun of your own, in Florida. And of course, the burglar will be on the edge, ready to shoot, at the slightest threat. I would.

The alternative is that people, particularly those with small children, will get prosecuted because they needed to make sure they eliminated the threat without any unnecessary risks to them and their family. A homeowner doesn't have the luxury of sitting around and debating with a burglar what his intentions are. There is no time to figure it out. If someone comes into my house, and is a room away from Little She, I will shoot him the face. Period. Or, whack him in the face with my baseball bat. I don't care what his intentions are, nor do I have time to figure them out.

The result is that burglars know that they are taking their lives into their hands when burgling houses. I would rather have that situation than one where burglars know they can walk in and help themselves to valuables as long as they make no sudden movements.

Lovely place, Florida.

It is, actually. Beautiful. The northern bit has a southern US flair with Live Oak trees full of Spanish moss and lots of old growth forest, streams for canoeing and a lovely friendly population. In the southern half, there are palm trees and such. The beaches are wonderful, and it is aptly known as the Sunshine state. The climate is fantastic. My city is friendly -- mid-sized city with a small town flair. Friendly people that smile and are kind to strangers.

Overall, it is a very safe place to be, with fairly low rate of crime, particularly violent crime.

I think I'll give it a miss, though.

That is wonderful. Your miserable mood, negativity, moroseness and gloom would only spoil the gentile southern charm that we love about the State of Florida.

[Audley Strange]

I just think it comical that anyone from such an extremely paranoid nation would consider us cowards.

What education, training, and licensure do you have to call even one person, let alone an entire country, "paranoid?"

The same licence that Seth has for calling mine cowards. run along.

[Strontium Dog]

Sometimes I think the American reluctance to give up the metal cock is because they are secretly scared that we're going to invade them again.

Get over it fellas. Empire is so 19th century, and nobody's going to beat our high score anyway.

[Collector1337]

I just think it comical that anyone from such an extremely paranoid nation would consider us cowards.

What education, training, and licensure do you have to call even one person, let alone an entire country, "paranoid?"

The same licence that Seth has for calling mine cowards. run along.

Well, one is a clinical term and one is not, so... run along.

[Daedalus]

I just think it comical that anyone from such an extremely paranoid nation would consider us cowards.

What education, training, and licensure do you have to call even one person, let alone an entire country, "paranoid?"

The same licence that Seth has for calling mine cowards. run along.

Well, one is a clinical term and one is not, so... run along.

Holo sights on assault rifles are for idiots.

[Collector1337]

I just think it comical that anyone from such an extremely paranoid nation would consider us cowards.

What education, training, and licensure do you have to call even one person, let alone an entire country, "paranoid?"

The same licence that Seth has for calling mine cowards. run along.

Well, one is a clinical term and one is not, so... run along.

Holo sights on assault rifles are for idiots.

Yeah, cops do seem to use them a lot.

[Animavore]

What education, training, and licensure do you have to call even one person, let alone an entire country, "paranoid?"

The same licence that Seth has for calling mine cowards. run along.

Well, one is a clinical term and one is not, so... run along.

Holo sights on assault rifles are for idiots.

Yeah, cops do seem to use them a lot.

QED

[Jason]

In my day we didn't have all these fancy optics and sighting devices. We had to point the barrel in the general direction of the target and elevate to allow for drop at distances greater than 30 yards.

[Seth]

In my day we didn't have all these fancy optics and sighting devices. We had to point the barrel in the general direction of the target and elevate to allow for drop at distances greater than 30 yards.

Old fogey. Get with the program! Time marches on!