More guns, more murders and suicides

[Blind groper]

About jumping from a high place.

This is, indeed, a very effective method of suicide. In fact the statistics show three very effective methods, all with about 90% "success" rate. That is, with a gun, jumping, or hanging oneself.

However, remember that most suicides are on temporary impulse. The impulse passes. If a method of killing oneself does not appear within the period of the impulse, it does not happen. This is why jumping is a minority method used in the USA. Most people take some time to find a high place, by which time, the impulse is gone. From memory, I think jumping is about 1% of all American suicides.

One the other hand, in Hong Kong, it is the majority method. Easy to see why. All those people living in high rise buildings, rather than American suburbia. They find their jump point while still under the impulse.

Hanging is a method that requires some preparation, and a lot of determination. In the USA, hanging is the second most frequent method of successful suicide, but a lot less than guns. Guns are easy, quick, and seen as painless.

[JimC]

Well, it would have taken a fair effort to get to get to our Westgate Bridge and jump from it, but between 15 and 20 people per year were doing it, until suicide barriers were installed...

The number of suicides from the West Gate Bridge has been reduced by 85 per cent since a temporary safety barrier was installed on the Melbourne landmark.

But the father of a 17-year-old boy who jumped to his death from the bridge in 2009 says many more lives could have been saved if the barrier had been erected earlier in line with coronial recommendations.

A report by the Coroner's Prevention Unit found five people jumped to their deaths between May 1, 2009 and February 14, 2011, compared with the two-year period immediately preceding the barrier's installation, during which 33 people died.

In a recent case, Coroner Paresa Spanos pointed to the report's results, noting there had been no apparent shift to alternative suicide locations in Victoria.

"It follows that VicRoads is to be commended for installation of the temporary safety barriers on the West Gate Bridge, which have proved an effective suicide prevention intervention," the coroner said.

She also pointed to the completion of a permanent safety barrier on the bridge, which is expected to provide even more effective intervention.

Ali Halkic has repeatedly said his 17-year-old son Allem would not have died in February 2009 if barriers had been installed earlier.

Mr Halkic said that in 2004 and 2005, separate coroners' rulings recommended suicide barriers be installed, but nothing was done.

"It becomes more distressing and alarming that there's potentially so many cases that could have possibly been prevented," Mr Halkic said.

"The ownership and responsibility has to solely lie with the people in charge in those years."

Allem's death came just days after four-year-old Darcey Freeman was thrown from the bridge by her father, Arthur Freeman, who has been jailed for life for her murder.

The government had announced plans to erect the barriers in December 2008, but fast-tracked the project after the two high-profile deaths.

Victorian Roads Minister Terry Mulder said any measure that reduced suicide risk was extremely welcome.

He said the permanent safety barriers due for completion would further reduce the devastating effects of suicide on Victorian families.

A spokeswoman for the opposition said Labor had taken the matter very seriously while in government.

"That's why we placed temporary barriers on the West Gate Bridge in 2009, and why we invested to install permanent barriers, which are now complete," she said.

[pErvinalia]

Let me clarify this.
Most attempts at suicide are on impulse. Those impulses last anything from a couple minutes to a couple hours. In most cases, the would-be suicide survives, and does not repeat the attempt.

The reason for tis is that most suicide attempts are by drug overdose, and only 2% of drug overdose attempts result in death. There are 220,000 attempts at suicide in the USA every year, and about 20,000 suicide deaths. However, there are about 13,000 suicide attempts in the USA each year with guns, and 12,000 of these succeed.

So would-be suicide without a gun will normally survive and go on to live a reasonable life. But a would-be suicide with a gun normally dies and we are left with a tragedy.

I have no problem with a person who genuinely wants to die being able to take his/her own life. But I am opposed to a person with a brief impulse to suicide because of a short period of sadness, destroying what is left of a possibly long and happy life.

If a person is genuinely determined to die, not as a result of impulse, then that person will find a way, even without guns. Most people, though, act on impulse, and a gun turns a silly impulse into a terrible tragedy.

The question again is - So what? (if we restrict this to adults, and not include children). It's certainly a tragedy in the view of others, but one of personal choice. What business is it of yours to say whether an adult should take their life or not?

[JimC]

Let me clarify this.
Most attempts at suicide are on impulse. Those impulses last anything from a couple minutes to a couple hours. In most cases, the would-be suicide survives, and does not repeat the attempt.

The reason for tis is that most suicide attempts are by drug overdose, and only 2% of drug overdose attempts result in death. There are 220,000 attempts at suicide in the USA every year, and about 20,000 suicide deaths. However, there are about 13,000 suicide attempts in the USA each year with guns, and 12,000 of these succeed.

So would-be suicide without a gun will normally survive and go on to live a reasonable life. But a would-be suicide with a gun normally dies and we are left with a tragedy.

I have no problem with a person who genuinely wants to die being able to take his/her own life. But I am opposed to a person with a brief impulse to suicide because of a short period of sadness, destroying what is left of a possibly long and happy life.

If a person is genuinely determined to die, not as a result of impulse, then that person will find a way, even without guns. Most people, though, act on impulse, and a gun turns a silly impulse into a terrible tragedy.

The question again is - So what? (if we restrict this to adults, and not include children). It's certainly a tragedy in the view of others, but one of personal choice. What business is it of yours to say whether an adult should take their life or not?

I don't think BG is "forbidding" or saying that suicide is a moral sin. It is not presumptuous at all to regret the suicide of another person ("No man is an island...") or to advocate measures such as the availability of counselling etc. to give every potential suicide the possibility of changing their mind (I obviously exclude people with terminal illnesses who have made the reasoned decision to seek a form of euthanasia). If the personal choice of an adult to suicide still prevails after the initial tormented impulse has passed, then so be it.

[pErvinalia]

I'm pretty sure he is, Jim (not a moral "sin", but a moral negative). He's been on about this for years.

[Audley Strange]

The argument just put up by Audley is based on the fallaceous assumption that people who attempt suicide are total failures at life. Research shows that most are not. Most are simply people who are down and sad for a short time. If they can survive that period of depression, they can live good lives.

Having a gun available prevents those people from having that chance. Bang, bang and you are dead.

Fallacious; and no my argument is not based on the assumption that people are total failures in life but that every human being should have the tools and autonomy to make even terminal decisions. This could be for ANY reason. While it's sad that a teen might top themselves because of some stupid decisions, plenty of others making the same decision probably don't, so in the end, as tragic as that may be, it changes nothing. However the laws we have allow many many people to suffer indignant fates.

Your second argument is no doubt... "you can kill yourself other ways" yes you can, that does not discount that the gun is still an effective tool.

[Blind groper]

To rEvo

About your "so what".

It is not a matter of morals. But if there is a single value in human affairs that means anything at all, it is human life. We universally condemn murder, and any action that, through careless or incompetence, leads to a person dying.

My view is simple. There is no god. There is no heaven or hell. Each of us has this one brief chance to live, and to make of ourselves something worth while, and to make of our lives something worth living. Based on this, to die prematurely is a tragedy.

Now, if a person has a life that is utterly miserable, or filled with pain, and there is no way out, then that person should have the option of ending it. But if a person has the potential to live through a short period of loneliness or depression, and live a full life thereafter, then the suicide is a tragedy.

Suicide is done on impulse, and most people who try suicide and fail, will not try again. Most people who try suicide will, in fact, survive, and will go on to live reasonable lives. Those who try and fail, and then try again, are more likely to be in the first group I discussed, and their right to suicide I support.

But it is usual for suicide attempts to fail, and for those people to go on and live full lives. It is unusual for a would-be suicide to attempt it, and die. Globally, the average is between 5% and 10% of those who attempt suicide actually succeeding. In the USA, the major factor that pushes someone from the 'usual' to the 'unusual' is having a gun available. Removing that availability will save thousands of lives each year, permitting all those people to have a second chance at building a satisfactory life. If they are long term depressives who definitely want to die, then the lack of a gun will not prevent them.

[piscator]

In the USA, the major factor that pushes someone from the 'usual' to the 'unusual' is having a gun available. Removing that availability will save thousands of lives each year, permitting all those people to have a second chance at building a satisfactory life. If they are long term depressives who definitely want to die, then the lack of a gun will not prevent them.

Why no mention of banning alcohol?

[JimC]

In the USA, the major factor that pushes someone from the 'usual' to the 'unusual' is having a gun available. Removing that availability will save thousands of lives each year, permitting all those people to have a second chance at building a satisfactory life. If they are long term depressives who definitely want to die, then the lack of a gun will not prevent them.

Why no mention of banning alcohol?

What is the relevance? Have you figures on the number of suicides by bottle?

[piscator]

In the USA, the major factor that pushes someone from the 'usual' to the 'unusual' is having a gun available. Removing that availability will save thousands of lives each year, permitting all those people to have a second chance at building a satisfactory life. If they are long term depressives who definitely want to die, then the lack of a gun will not prevent them.

Why no mention of banning alcohol?

What is the relevance? Have you figures on the number of suicides by bottle?

You're right Jim. Alcohol has no statistical relevance in a discussion of suicides.

[Blind groper]

Banning alcohol is easier said than done, since it is not difficult to brew the stuff illegally.

Restricting access to guns, though, is something that has succeeded in every western country, except the USA. The reason it has not succeeded in the USA is that no one has made an honest attempt at even trying.

[piscator]

Quite likely one will either. The 2nd Amendment of our Constitution is as valued here as the 1st. Some will just never understand that.

[piscator]

Quite likely no one will either. The 2nd Amendment of our Constitution is as valued here as the 1st. Some will just never understand that.

[FBM]

Yep. It will take a radical revision of the Constitution before firearm restrictions could be as tight as some foreign people would like. But they're over there, so...

[pErvinalia]

You mercans can shoot yourselves as much as you want, as far as I'm concerned.