DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Beatsong » Fri May 16, 2014 2:46 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:why should someone get banned for misrepresentation??
Because it's against the FUA. "Banned" only subject to the process of escalation from warnings to suspensions to bannings of course.

Although when such misrepresentation is as consistent, wilful, unapologetic, deliberate and immune to correction as it is from Samsa - in this case specifically and also in the way it seems to be becoming his general modus operandi - then it presumeably contributes to the assessment of that great vague and pliable concept of "trolling", which can apparently result in an instaban.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Beatsong » Fri May 16, 2014 3:03 pm

Aspire - your quote tags are fucked up. I'm not sure if your reply is from yourself or someone else. But it's bullshit either way.
aspire1670 wrote:
Beatsong wrote:So I just went back to see whether Cito had actually said what you're ascribing to him, and saw where the whole to do with Metatron started. You wrote:
"Soundbites" to Metatron's disagreement? He appealed to chemophobia and "think of the children" emotional reasoning, and I responded with substantial rebuttals. When he had no other argument he relied on the idea that there is a conspiracy of clinicians drugging children to line their pockets - that is a conspiracy theory.
And then Metatron responded all prickly like, for the very understandable reason that he never actually said ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE what you claimed he said. You basically just made it up.

And then despite seven more pages of him explaining what he DID actually think, and saying NOTHING of any such money making conspiracy, you come here with your sweet little innocent face all "What? ME misrepresenting?" and just repeat the lie.
The Metatron made a whole series of posts that may be fairly interpreted as arguing some clinicians were drugging children for other than clinical reasons. He even wondered aloud what Mr Samsa stood to gain from supporting drug treatment for some children with ADHD. I found these posts by using the search terms "drugging children". If you can't find Metatron's explicit and implicit references to drugging for gain then you need to hone your search skills and pay more attention to reading for comprehension.
And you wonder why you're running out of friends there. :lol:
Nope.

All metatron said was that children were being drugged when they shouldn't be drugged. The ONLY place where he offered a reason why, was here:
It's becoming more and more obvious to me that the desire is to modify the behavior of the outliers to make them act more like the masses. Easier to handle, that way. Less work.
Which has absolutely nothing whatsofuckingever to do with it being a conspiracy to make money.

Furthermore, "Big Pharma" is not a reference to clinicians. It's a reference to drug COMPANIES. Mr Samsa's reference to the "conspiracy theory" aspect of it is indeed resonant of where the term originally comes from - from the idea that the drug COMPANIES are selling people drugs that they don't need or are bad for them, just to make money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_pharma

Metatron by contrast never even made ANY reference to the drug companies. Nor did he make any suggest that the REASON for the (in his opinion) incorrect prescribing of drugs by clinicians could be traced back to such companies or their supposed "conspiracy". He did in fact give the reason why he thought they were making such incorrect prescriptions. Like I said the thread up to that point was only three pages long so it's not hard to find, and I've quoted it above. Samsa just chose to ignore it and put words in his mouth instead, that's all.

But hey, let's not take my word for it. If you're convinced that you've found so many examples of Metatron saying that BIG PHARMA (ie, the drug companies) are involved in a conspiracy to drug children TO MAKE MONEY, then it should be dead easy for you to link to them, right? So I extend exactly the same invitation to do so as I extended to Mr Samsa. And then if it's not entirely clear what he meant and it could be interpreted several ways, we can talk about that...

But we know neither you or Samsa are going to do that, because he didn't actually say ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY be interpreted that way. I'm not sure why I have to keep saying, and capitalising, this, if it is so obvious that he did. All you or Samsa have to do is provide the link/quote. So go on then...

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by laklak » Fri May 16, 2014 3:08 pm

I could use some of that Big Pharma shit. Can't sleep at night and tired in the morning. I'm thinking a tuinol nightcap and a dexie eyeopener.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Beatsong » Fri May 16, 2014 4:32 pm

Can't seem to edit my post, but I see now there may be some confusion about the "Big Pharma" aspect. Mr Samsa referred to "an army of clinicians" in the post to Metatron, not to drug companies, although he later here (in the post that started this) referred to Metatron's supposed conspiracy theory about "Big Pharma". So maybe he's using "Big Pharma" in a broader sense to include psychiatrists themselves.

Doesn't change the misrepresentation though, since the part about "drugging children to line their pockets" is still something that Metatron never said, or even suggested. Metatron's explanation of wanting to "modify the behavior of the outliers to make them act more like the masses. Easier to handle, that way. Less work." doesn't even suggest that the motivation for that comes from clinicians themselves. Given that it's parents and teachers who have to do the "work" of looking after hyperactive kids, I would read his post as being clearly about them.

Samsa is really just making shit up here. The fact that he can't produce a single string of words from Metatron coming anywhere near what he claims Metatron argued, but still pretends to be innocent of misrepresentation, is just hilarious. If you've claimed that somebody said something, and you're not misrepresenting them, then you simply show where they said it. The internet is great for that because the words are all still there in black and white, for all to see.

Unless they don't exist, of course.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Robert_S » Fri May 16, 2014 6:57 pm

Greetings RatSkeppers!

:hiwave:
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Jason » Fri May 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:Bend a spoon.
Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Fallible » Fri May 16, 2014 8:09 pm

THERE IS NO SPOON.
Don't be afraid of what they'll say.
Who cares what cowards think anyway?
They will understand one day,
One day.
- Yann Tiersen

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Mr.Samsa » Fri May 16, 2014 9:09 pm

Beatsong, as always you are trying to defend a position you don't understand. Firstly, metatron is accusing me of misrepresentation for the "aliens" comment, he hasn't disagreed with anything else. I'm sure that's because he knows it'll be silly given how much he misrepresented me in that thread.

Secondly the mods aren't debating suspending me over rule breaches. They are debating whether I'm a troll and need to be permabanned. As expressed by Rev, no one is permabanned for misrepresentation.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Beatsong » Fri May 16, 2014 9:26 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:Beatsong, as always you are trying to defend a position you don't understand. Firstly, metatron is accusing me of misrepresentation for the "aliens" comment, he hasn't disagreed with anything else.
Oh right. So the misrepresentation he's complaining about is a DIFFERENT AND ADDITIONAL misrepresentation to the one we've been discussing here - the one you originally denied having made, but which we can now all accept you did make, due to your inability to find a single quote to suggest otherwise.

Sorry if I got a little confused about the misrepresentations. It's just with you making so many of them and all, I lose track...
I'm sure that's because he knows it'll be silly given how much he misrepresented me in that thread.


Gosh, that must be really frustrating for you. :lol:
Secondly the mods aren't debating suspending me over rule breaches. They are debating whether I'm a troll and need to be permabanned. As expressed by Rev, no one is permabanned for misrepresentation.
Indeed. Thing is that "troll" is the single most woolly, undefined, make-of-it-what-you-will piece of stuff in the whole FUA. There's not even a pretence at trying to define what it actually means.

I'm pretty sure from previous readings though that continual, deliberate misrepresentation of the views of other members, and unwillingness to admit and amend such misrepresentation when it's pointed out, is sometimes interpreted as an indication of it.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Beatsong » Fri May 16, 2014 9:32 pm

I should probably add that as far as I understand the word troll - meaning someone who doesn't or hardly attempt to post constructive content and engage in constructive dialogue at all, but simply manipulates the appearance of such dialogue to disrupt the forum and annoy other members - I certainly don't think you are one.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Scott1328 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:33 pm

So, no perma ban for Samsa, just a month's long suspension for telling Weaver he was "cowardly hiding behind PM's" after Weaver had posted his rather hysterical and inflammatory rant.

Note, I believe, Samsa was making a reference to Weaver's faux pas last month, where he mistakenly posted on an open forum a PM he had intended to send to the moderators. This PM was blatantly abusive toward the Ex-mods who have lately been voicing criticism of current moderation.

It has happened on occasion that the mod team has granted leeway to those who retaliated against someone who first posted inflammatory content. Apparently not in this case however.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Svartalf » Fri May 16, 2014 10:39 pm

Făkünamę wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:Bend a spoon.
Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Bending a spoon is quite easy, with two hands, .
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by DaveDodo007 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:49 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:Beatsong, as always you are trying to defend a position you don't understand. Firstly, metatron is accusing me of misrepresentation for the "aliens" comment, he hasn't disagreed with anything else. I'm sure that's because he knows it'll be silly given how much he misrepresented me in that thread.

Secondly the mods aren't debating suspending me over rule breaches. They are debating whether I'm a troll and need to be permabanned. As expressed by Rev, no one is permabanned for misrepresentation.
I don't know what's going on here but I do know The_metatron is quite dim, unexceptional and shits himself when he hears an opinion that does not compute in his ZX80 limited brain ram. Yet for no reason I can fathom he thinks he is intelligent, witty and the life and soul of any party he allowed to be a part of. I can only assume that he is part of the generation of which the parents were told it is a good idea to tell your retarded children that they are special snowflakes. If his avatar is anything to go by then he probably got bullied a school and still wets the bed thinking about it.
We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by DaveDodo007 » Fri May 16, 2014 11:08 pm

Beatsong wrote:I should probably add that as far as I understand the word troll - meaning someone who doesn't or hardly attempt to post constructive content and engage in constructive dialogue at all, but simply manipulates the appearance of such dialogue to disrupt the forum and annoy other members - I certainly don't think you are one.
Honest question: Are you defending The_matatron because you feel he is being misrepresented as I have no clue what this is about. If so that is an a noble stance to take and fair enough but my limited dealings with him give me the impression that he is a dishonest fuck with the morals of an ally cat and the intelligence of a dead ant.
We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.

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Re: DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

Post by Jason » Fri May 16, 2014 11:09 pm

He probably gets his delusions of intelligence from his work history as an engineer at NASA.

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