Extinction Rebellion

[JimC]

Not all capitalists want the planet to roast: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-03/ ... e/11474698

Global technology giant Atlassian is encouraging its staff to be activists in this month's global climate strike by providing them with special paid leave.

The company's co-chief executive, Mike Cannon-Brookes, said climate change is now an "existential threat" and is backing climate activism in the workplace as a new corporate social responsibility that is critical to the survival of capitalism.

While joining the strike is voluntary, the billionaire said Atlassian staff will be able to use all or part of a week's special volunteering leave to protest the lack of action by world leaders.

"We are supporting their right to take a stand. What we're saying is to Atlassian staff, it is okay to express your views and support for a massive existential global issue," Mr Cannon-Brookes told the ABC's AM program.

"As a company we support their right to do that and at the same time, honour our customer commitments and we're trying to balance between those two."

[pErvinalia]

Socialist!

[NineBerry]

I rather hope, Brian, that you have seen that all my posts have stated quite clearly that action is needed, in terms of accelerating the current slow pace of change to renewables. My two, rather minor cavils with ER is firstly to do with setting impossible timelines (technically impossible, not just politically)

I'd contest that statement. Where there is a will, there is a way. Think about World War 2. Germany built up an army and went all over Europe within a few years. The same way, the Allied Forces built up their military and could overpower Germany within a few years. Think Project Manhattan.

If there was the political will to put all efforts into combating climate change, we would be able to do it. Problem is that most people do not see that this issue is one comparable to a world war and would not agree with such measures. My fear is it will need some more of the terrible effects to become visible before that will change.

[rainbow]

I rather hope, Brian, that you have seen that all my posts have stated quite clearly that action is needed, in terms of accelerating the current slow pace of change to renewables. My two, rather minor cavils with ER is firstly to do with setting impossible timelines (technically impossible, not just politically)

I'd contest that statement. Where there is a will, there is a way. Think about World War 2. Germany built up an army and went all over Europe within a few years. The same way, the Allied Forces built up their military and could overpower Germany within a few years. Think Project Manhattan.

If there was the political will to put all efforts into combating climate change, we would be able to do it. Problem is that most people do not see that this issue is one comparable to a world war and would not agree with such measures. My fear is it will need some more of the terrible effects to become visible before that will change.

You are as always quite correct.
Technically we could change to renewables in a few years, including the supply of fuels for existing power stations, planes, vehicles and ships.
Biomass can be converted into liquid and solid fuels by pyrolysis, and to gas by anaerobic digestion. Been done. Proven technology.

The only problem is that fossil fuels are cheaper, when you don't count the environmental cost.

[Brian Peacock]

There's a good point: the environmental impacts of fossil energy haven't been factored into the costs because nobody really owns the environment - how can something which you can't buy or sell have a value?

People are beginning to twig that if they don't value the environment then somebody else will rape it and then shit on the corpse.

[rainbow]

There's a good point: the environmental impacts of fossil energy haven't been factored into the costs because nobody really owns the environment - how can something which you can't buy or sell have a value?

People are beginning to twig that if they don't value the environment then somebody else will rape it and then shit on the corpse.

Interesting talk on biodegradable polymers made from cellulose (polylactide). The problem is that the raw material lactic acid is cheaper to make from crude oil than waste (straw, bagasse, wood chips, whey, etc).
...so a step forward - but another back.

[Brian Peacock]

This is why Capitalism cannot solve environmental issues and why, somewhat ironically and in true neo-liberal fashion, new markets have to be created through government regulation while the old markets are phased out on public health grounds.

[JimC]

This is why Capitalism cannot solve environmental issues and why, somewhat ironically and in true neo-liberal fashion, new markets have to be created through government regulation while the old markets are phased out on public health grounds.

I disagree, at least in part. The markets for renewables are there, and investment is shifting in their direction. Governments cannot create the markets, but they should have a role in facilitating the shift and accelerating it, via tax policy, subsidies or whatever pragmatic means can be found. I agree that governments should also use health and environmental policies to hasten a decline in the use of coal.

[Brian Peacock]

Poster developed by local youth outreach team. My role was offering encouragement and saying, "Yeah, that's really good."

[Sean Hayden]

[Brian Peacock]

This is why Capitalism cannot solve environmental issues and why, somewhat ironically and in true neo-liberal fashion, new markets have to be created through government regulation while the old markets are phased out on public health grounds.

I disagree, at least in part. The markets for renewables are there, and investment is shifting in their direction. Governments cannot create the markets, but they should have a role in facilitating the shift and accelerating it, via tax policy, subsidies or whatever pragmatic means can be found. I agree that governments should also use health and environmental policies to hasten a decline in the use of coal.

When I talk about governments creating markets through regulation I'm not being fanciful or suggesting anything that doesn't already happen. It's essentially no different to how governments sell portions of the electro-magnetic spectrum to phone companies and broadcast media etc. It's the normal role of government to do that kind of thing, as it is to fund research into alternatives to current practice. The point is, again, that where there's a will there's a way. If governments are to sit back and do nothing until fossil fuels become unprofitable, at which point the renewable sector can come in and mop up, then they're basically committing themselves to overseeing the continued pollution of the environment.

[JimC]

Poster developed by local youth outreach team. My role was offering encouragement and saying, "Yeah, that's really good."

XR_SYCS_WEEK_OF_ACTION.jpg

Bron and I will be there at the Melbourne protest that day. We'll start making a banner soon: "Stop Adani" on one side, and "Sun & Wind" on the other (Adani is an Indian company building a controversial new coal mine on aboriginal land in Queensland).

There's a local Extinction Rebellion planning meeting next week which I may attend as well..

[JimC]

This is why Capitalism cannot solve environmental issues and why, somewhat ironically and in true neo-liberal fashion, new markets have to be created through government regulation while the old markets are phased out on public health grounds.

I disagree, at least in part. The markets for renewables are there, and investment is shifting in their direction. Governments cannot create the markets, but they should have a role in facilitating the shift and accelerating it, via tax policy, subsidies or whatever pragmatic means can be found. I agree that governments should also use health and environmental policies to hasten a decline in the use of coal.

When I talk about governments creating markets through regulation I'm not being fanciful or suggesting anything that doesn't already happen. It's essentially no different to how governments sell portions of the electro-magnetic spectrum to phone companies and broadcast media etc. It's the normal role of government to do that kind of thing, as it is to fund research into alternatives to current practice. The point is, again, that where there's a will there's a way. If governments are to sit back and do nothing until fossil fuels become unprofitable, at which point the renewable sector can come in and mop up, then they're basically committing themselves to overseeing the continued pollution of the environment.

In reality, we are probably not really far apart on this. The main point I'm making is that it's important to recognise that there is real market movement in the direction of renewables, so it's there to be nurtured, encouraged and accelerated. Pragmatically, whatever the myriad faults of a free enterprise system, it seems highly unlikely it can be overturned or replaced in a timely manner, so concerned citizens should be pushing existing governments (or electing new ones) into exerting economic and social pressure to speed the shift...

[Brian Peacock]

In normal times I'd agree with you on 'overturning the system'. However, if the science is to be believed one has to presume that Capitalism as we know it today will collapse with the climate for the simple reason that those entities known as societies or nations will break down under environmental pressures like hunger, thirst, exposure, and the anger and frustration that will flow from that. XR are thinking ahead and saying we need a just transition to a new way of doing things and that the ball has to start rolling on that now.

[JimC]

In normal times I'd agree with you on 'overturning the system'. However, if the science is to be believed one has to presume that Capitalism as we know it today will collapse with the climate for the simple reason that those entities known as societies or nations will break down under environmental pressures like hunger, thirst, exposure, and the anger and frustration that will flow from that. XR are thinking ahead and saying we need a just transition to a new way of doing things and that the ball has to start rolling on that now.

Firstly, if Capitalism collapses, it will likely involve a total collapse of technological civilisation. Perhaps this will be a solution to global warming in itself, but not one to be wished for, in terms of human suffering.

The alternative, a "just transition to a new way of doing things" needs more detail. My version would simply be a majority of world governments prepared to strongly insist that corporations bend to the necessity of action to combat global warming. Those corporations who have seen the writing on the wall, and who have already started to invest seriously in renewables will prosper, the rest will not...