"I've been lied to all these years."

[Thinking Aloud]

This is a phrase that I've often read in accounts of people coming out of religion. It can be associated with anger or at least disappointment towards parents, church, friends in the aftermath of losing faith. But is the "lying" accusation justified, if those who taught the faith genuinely believed what they were doing was right, and the truth?

Nothing in my experience as a theist suggested that anyone, be they parents, priests, teachers, etc, were knowingly lying to me. They were all passing on what they believed to be true.

So the question is this. Is there, in the monstrosity that is religion, a point where someone is knowingly deceiving the minions, or is just running under its own self-generating momentum?

One could probably point to a "Mega Church" or two and see this clearly, but what about say the Roman Catholic church? If the Pope genuinely believes in his god, is anyone "lying"? Aren't they just wrong?

I don't really know why I posted this. Just seemed like something to throw out there.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Anybody above local priest/preacher/shaman is a bureaucrat in the "organization." They are chosen for promotion because they work with the establishment. The establishment, IMHO, is a "living being" and has one mission, to keep itself alive. So the establishment will do whatever is needed to keep itself alive, including lying. I'm willing to bet that there are very few Catholics above parish priest who actually believe what they peddle.

Just my take, developed over 52 years of listening to BS.

[Rum]

I'm not sure there is one answer to this. I suspect some people do lie. I was 'converted' as a born again type in my teens as you may or may not have read but I had serious doubts for the few years I was involved with the evangelical types I was with. Even so I used strong arguments in efforts to convince other people to be 'saved' even when I was doubting. In some ways trying to convert others strengthened my own conviction - slightly anyway. Truth is I was being dishonest.

I have also often wondered about people reporting 'healing' and/or speaking in tongues and those sorts of things. I never actually saw either, even though I mixed with some pretty heavy duty evangelicals, and yet people told me*they* had seen stuff like that. Perhaps they were telling tales or passing on second hand stories themselves.

Once one believes one is a sucker for any shred of information or 'evidence' which supports one's faith in my view. One is wide open to be conned and in turn to con - even if it by being sloppy, lazy and justifying half-truths because you 'know' it is 'justified'. Knowing the end is 'true' (i.e. God is amazinglywonderfulandmysaviour) the means are justified to many perhaps.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Rum, people delude themselves all the time, because it's easier than dealing with reality. So "healing", "talking to the dead", etc., is the lazy way to deal with a problem. That makes it the default choice for most people.

[Rum]

Rum, people delude themselves all the time, because it's easier than dealing with reality. So "healing", "talking to the dead", etc., is the lazy way to deal with a problem. That makes it the default choice for most people.

Well I was trying to unpack the question. Many people may not consciously lie about their faith in God, but being self deluded and living an unexamined life - and passing unexamined views on could be seen as dishonest. How many people actually consciously do not believe but lie to others that they do - well that is another matter. I am sure there are a few..especially if they link god and business as if often the case in America as I understand it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Rum, people delude themselves all the time, because it's easier than dealing with reality. So "healing", "talking to the dead", etc., is the lazy way to deal with a problem. That makes it the default choice for most people.

Well I was trying to unpack the question. Many people may not consciously lie about their faith in God, but being self deluded and living an unexamined life - and passing unexamined views on could be seen as dishonest. How many people actually consciously do not believe but lie to others that they do - well that is another matter. I am sure there are a few..especially if they link god and business as if often the case in America as I understand it.

The Catholic church is one of the largest "corporations" in the world. The evangelical TV hucksters might as well be printing money. In both cases I don't believe for a second that the upper echelons believe in what they're spouting.

[Rum]

Rum, people delude themselves all the time, because it's easier than dealing with reality. So "healing", "talking to the dead", etc., is the lazy way to deal with a problem. That makes it the default choice for most people.

Well I was trying to unpack the question. Many people may not consciously lie about their faith in God, but being self deluded and living an unexamined life - and passing unexamined views on could be seen as dishonest. How many people actually consciously do not believe but lie to others that they do - well that is another matter. I am sure there are a few..especially if they link god and business as if often the case in America as I understand it.

The Catholic church is one of the largest "corporations" in the world. The evangelical TV hucksters might as well be printing money. In both cases I don't believe for a second that the upper echelons believe in what they're spouting.

I have no evidence for this view - just intuition, but TV huckters - yep - no doubt, but the Catholic hierarchy is another matter.

I think I trust a huckter rather more than I do a true believer in any case!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I have no evidence for this view - just intuition, but TV huckters - yep - no doubt, but the Catholic hierarchy is another matter.

I think I trust a huckter rather more than I do a true believer in any case!

I've met a few bishops. They were all Latin American, but I doubt the rest of the breed is any different.

As for hucksters, you know they don't believe what they're peddling, so you have an edge on them.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

How many heroin users that have yet to take to the needle will tell you that they eventually will? How many closet queens deny ever having sexual thoughts about those of the same sex? how many degenerate gamblers tell you that they 'break even' during most visits to the casino / cardroom / bookmaker's / amusement arcade?

Once you have lied to yourself, telling the same lies to others is merely a continuation.

[Thinking Aloud]

So I guess one could argue (probably strongly) that since Religion provides power, control, and money to whoever is up at the top, it's unlikely anyone up there is entirely motivated by their supposed belief - if at all. Or maybe they are, but they're in the thrall of their Reptilian Overlords who are really calling the shots.

[Sisifo]

Everything can eventually be a lie, including many scientific axioms. And religion is not the only thing that parents lie the children about... A frontier of grudge could be, IMHO, the intentionality of that lie. If it was out of trying to benefit someone, or trying to profit from someone.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that religion should fall under the laws of pornography, and limit its reach to full informed adults able to discern.

[Feck]

Actually I can't get my head around a rational post on this subject .Lots of rage and rant simmering away.
And I get A FAIL if I mention Nazi germany don't I ? how about the Nuremberg Defence ?
All 'Evil empires' rely on the stupid the weak the gullible and the indoctrinated to use as foot soldiers,that is how they get the 'work' done .