Are humans apes?

[mistermack]

We did diverge from apes. We did it twice. Get your facts right.

Get your own facts right. We divergerged from OTHER apes. We didn't stop being apes.
By any scientific measure, humans are apes.
Mammals diverged from other vertebrates. They are STILL VERTEBRATES.
Primates diverged from other mammals. They are STILL MAMMALS.
Hominids diverged from other primates. They are STILL PRIMATES.
Hominins diverged from other Hominids. They are STILL HOMINIDS.
So humans diverged from other apes. But they are STILL APES.

Why is it people are so loathe to be classed as apes?
We don't mind being classed as vertebrates, or mammals, or primates, or even hominids or hominins. But the word ape seems to send people do-lally.
.

[FBM]

She claims we're primates, not apes.

She's right

No! That's wrong! We're not primates. We're mammals. Err... no. We're vertebrates! Err... Animals!

Fuck it - we are all of those. What subject is your tutor teaching you, lozzer. I do hope it's not biology!

Here - this is from WIKIPEDIA! So it must be FACT!

Under the current classification system there are two families of hominoids:
the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 14 species of gibbon, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively known as the lesser apes.
the family Hominidae consisting of chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangutans[1][2] collectively known as the great apes.
A few other primates, such as the Barbary Ape, have the word ape in their common names (usually to indicate lack of a tail), but they are not regarded as true apes.

It's anthropology, but I knew I was right. I never had the guts to correct her, but she can be a bit ditsy, bless her

She's fucking tutoring you in anthropology and she doesn't even know this?

[JimC]

Two things, we didn't diverge from the apes. This has not yet happened, nor will it, because we are apes, and will always remain so. Secondly, our genes didn't fuse, our number two chromosome is a fusion of two chromosomes present in other apes, and it expresses identically, so it accounts for zero percent of the difference between us and other primates, meaning that it can't be a point of divergence, because in order for it to be a point of divergence from apes (which hasn't and won't happen), it would have to account for some of the difference between us and other primates.

A minor correction. The chromosome fusion, although preserving the genes involved, probably had a vital role in the speciation event in the population ancestral to the chimpanzees and ourselves; such a change in chromosome numbers would form a reproductive barrier, allowing the two gene pools to diverge with little chance of subsequent introgression. This use of the word "diverge" is appropriate, although of course it remains totally true that the apes, including humans, are a monophyletic group.

[mistermack]

A minor correction. The chromosome fusion, although preserving the genes involved, probably had a vital role in the speciation event in the population ancestral to the chimpanzees and ourselves; such a change in chromosome numbers would form a reproductive barrier, allowing the two gene pools to diverge with little chance of subsequent introgression. This use of the word "diverge" is appropriate, although of course it remains totally true that the apes, including humans, are a monophyletic group.

I'm not sure I'm with you on that. It might form a reproductive barrier now, after six million years of seperate evolution, (although that's not been proved), but would it have done so six million years ago?
.

[Lozzer]

She's fucking tutoring you in anthropology and she doesn't even know this?

Uhuh.

[Trolldor]

FBM: One half of my psych class was still trying to use freud to answer questions. Being in charge doesn't make you respectable.

[hackenslash]

A minor correction. The chromosome fusion, although preserving the genes involved, probably had a vital role in the speciation event in the population ancestral to the chimpanzees and ourselves; such a change in chromosome numbers would form a reproductive barrier, allowing the two gene pools to diverge with little chance of subsequent introgression.

That's not a given, is it? There is much contention concerning whether the fused chromosome constitutes a barrier to reproduction.

This use of the word "diverge" is appropriate, although of course it remains totally true that the apes, including humans, are a monophyletic group.

The use of the word 'diverge' is most certainly appropriate, but the phrase 'diverge from apes' most certainly is not, because no such divergence ever took place, because we are still apes.

[hackenslash]

We did diverge from apes. We did it twice. Get your facts right.

Do at least try to understand the arguments before erecting such vapid nonsense, there's a good chap. I have my facts right, thanks. We didn't diverge from apes because we are apes. Geddit?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

We did diverge from apes. We did it twice. Get your facts right.

Do at least try to understand the arguments before erecting such vapid nonsense, there's a good chap. I have my facts right, thanks. We didn't diverge from apes because we are apes. Geddit?

Err... Hack. Look who you're arguing with. That's Chucky. He makes no sense deliberately. He's our court jester.

[hackenslash]

I know who he is. We go back about five minutes. He is one of my many fans, who follow me around the internet.

[Chuck Jones]

We did diverge from apes. We did it twice. Get your facts right.

Do at least try to understand the arguments before erecting such vapid nonsense, there's a good chap. I have my facts right, thanks. We didn't diverge from apes because we are apes. Geddit?

No no you stupid cunt. You are but a wannabee scientist, not an actual scientist. Now if you can tear yourself away from your fixation on my erection, maybe you can get some real scientific work done. In the meantime I'll be interfacing my erection with yo' momma's ass. Maybe I'll win a Nobel. Wish me luck!

[Tigger]

Chuck Jones's account will be suspended for 24 hours for repeated personal attacks.

[JimC]

A minor correction. The chromosome fusion, although preserving the genes involved, probably had a vital role in the speciation event in the population ancestral to the chimpanzees and ourselves; such a change in chromosome numbers would form a reproductive barrier, allowing the two gene pools to diverge with little chance of subsequent introgression.

That's not a given, is it? There is much contention concerning whether the fused chromosome constitutes a barrier to reproduction.

The articles I have read suggested it was a likely barrier to reproductive success. A first generation hybrid may or may not be viable, but when meiosis occurs to produce gametes for a second generation, there would be a high probability of missing vital genes. Hybrid sterility is an effective barrier to the re-merging of sundered gene pools.

But, however likely, it still remains speculative, I suppose...

[Horwood Beer-Master]

A minor correction. The chromosome fusion, although preserving the genes involved, probably had a vital role in the speciation event in the population ancestral to the chimpanzees and ourselves; such a change in chromosome numbers would form a reproductive barrier, allowing the two gene pools to diverge with little chance of subsequent introgression.

That's not a given, is it? There is much contention concerning whether the fused chromosome constitutes a barrier to reproduction.

The articles I have read suggested it was a likely barrier to reproductive success. A first generation hybrid may or may not be viable, but when meiosis occurs to produce gametes for a second generation, there would be a high probability of missing vital genes. Hybrid sterility is an effective barrier to the re-merging of sundered gene pools.

But, however likely, it still remains speculative, I suppose...

I understand there are some animals that have been found to have a varying number of chromosomes within the species.

[GenesForLife]

A minor correction. The chromosome fusion, although preserving the genes involved, probably had a vital role in the speciation event in the population ancestral to the chimpanzees and ourselves; such a change in chromosome numbers would form a reproductive barrier, allowing the two gene pools to diverge with little chance of subsequent introgression.

That's not a given, is it? There is much contention concerning whether the fused chromosome constitutes a barrier to reproduction.

The articles I have read suggested it was a likely barrier to reproductive success. A first generation hybrid may or may not be viable, but when meiosis occurs to produce gametes for a second generation, there would be a high probability of missing vital genes. Hybrid sterility is an effective barrier to the re-merging of sundered gene pools.

But, however likely, it still remains speculative, I suppose...

I understand there are some animals that have been found to have a varying number of chromosomes within the species.

This is right, a species of mouse from Japan comes to mind, I may dig up some research papers later on this.