Dawkins: At War With The Feminists?

[stripes4]

No. In Ireland they just say 'am a gettin a shag or what, den?'

[Animavore]

[stripes4]

Which is, may I add, delightfully straightforward and probably less threatening!!

[Gallstones]

Haha. Charlou. It must be something about fantasising about having the 'decision' taken out of your hands. I wonder?? In REALITY, I think I would feel a bit nervous and vulnerable to be propositioned in a lift. In a bar, a club, a supermarket, or any other area with other people milling about, bring it on!!! but for me, if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Context is important. He hadn't just seen Watson in the elevator-- he'd been listening to her talk about sexualization/objectification of women, for hours. How is it not clueless of him to ignore everything she said? If you want a woman not to feel objectified, paying attention to her clearly stated likes and dislikes is a good place to start.

And how is it not clueless of him not to realize that asking someone back to your place has a different effect when it's four in the morning and you're alone in an elevator, versus maybe asking her back at the bar, before she decided to leave? Or at any other point in the long day he'd spent as part of her audience?

Just saw you there, XC-- and...word.

But, is coming on to a woman one finds attractive, even in a clumsy or "inappropriate" manner, to be considered the sexualization/objectification of women? I mean, surely women who don't like to be objectified still might like to ride the baloney pony now and again?

How is it ignoring everything she said to make a clumsy attempt to ask her back to his room for coffer? Maybe he really did want to have a chat and grab a cup of coffee - it was 4am. Lots of people like a bit of coffee when it's late and they've been up all night.

As for the choice of location. He may well have not had an opportunity to talk to her. Maybe he was nervous. Maybe he wound up with her in the elevator purely by chance and thought "what the hell, I'll be nice and try to non-sexually ask her for a cup of java" to show her that he was a modern man who can invite a woman back to his room for something other than banging her. That's "clueless?" Maybe he had no interest in her except for intellectually - she's not that hot anyway, so maybe the guy really did want to have a chat?

I think one needs to make some really big assumptions about this guy in order to question his motives and call him clueless. And, even if he is clueless, and found her attractive but went about it the wrong way asking her in the wrong place at the wrong time - for the love of noGod - was the error of such monumental proportions that he is now to be considered a woman-hating sexist pig? From his clumsy approach, he sounds more like a nerd or a geek who had a couple two many drinks and made a dopey attempt to get to know this chick.

So, "coming on" to a woman isn't about sex, with her? And if it is about sex with her, isn't she then sexualized?

[stripes4]

Is true. Grew up with men from Liverpool. Remarkably similar!!

[Coito ergo sum]

Spoken like a true person that has never been a female in a potentially vulnerable position. Great empathy. Applause.

Is being in an elevator alone with a male human automatically a "potentially vulnerable position?"

[stripes4]

not automatically, no. I didn't say that, as well you know.

[stripes4]

re earlier. Context.

[Gallstones]

Which is, may I add, delightfully straightforward and probably less threatening!!

I experienced this very thing recently. The guy was quite to the point. I said no, and that was that. I still enjoy his company when the occasion arises and think nothing less of him for it. Whether he still feels the same about me, I can't say.

Men confuse the fuck out of me (not a pun) any more.

[Gallstones]

For the record, regardless of context, I--me--am not going to the hotel room of some guy I don't know and never met. I don't care what he says he wants to do there with me.

[Animavore]

Is true. Grew up with men from Liverpool. Remarkably similar!!

It's funny 'cause it's true

That's not to say EG wasn't a Southside, Donnybrook, la-di-da, I'm on The O.C. twat in which case he may have used such an American euphemism.

[Coito ergo sum]

Haha. Charlou. It must be something about fantasising about having the 'decision' taken out of your hands. I wonder?? In REALITY, I think I would feel a bit nervous and vulnerable to be propositioned in a lift. In a bar, a club, a supermarket, or any other area with other people milling about, bring it on!!! but for me, if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Context is important. He hadn't just seen Watson in the elevator-- he'd been listening to her talk about sexualization/objectification of women, for hours. How is it not clueless of him to ignore everything she said? If you want a woman not to feel objectified, paying attention to her clearly stated likes and dislikes is a good place to start.

And how is it not clueless of him not to realize that asking someone back to your place has a different effect when it's four in the morning and you're alone in an elevator, versus maybe asking her back at the bar, before she decided to leave? Or at any other point in the long day he'd spent as part of her audience?

Just saw you there, XC-- and...word.

But, is coming on to a woman one finds attractive, even in a clumsy or "inappropriate" manner, to be considered the sexualization/objectification of women? I mean, surely women who don't like to be objectified still might like to ride the baloney pony now and again?

How is it ignoring everything she said to make a clumsy attempt to ask her back to his room for coffer? Maybe he really did want to have a chat and grab a cup of coffee - it was 4am. Lots of people like a bit of coffee when it's late and they've been up all night.

As for the choice of location. He may well have not had an opportunity to talk to her. Maybe he was nervous. Maybe he wound up with her in the elevator purely by chance and thought "what the hell, I'll be nice and try to non-sexually ask her for a cup of java" to show her that he was a modern man who can invite a woman back to his room for something other than banging her. That's "clueless?" Maybe he had no interest in her except for intellectually - she's not that hot anyway, so maybe the guy really did want to have a chat?

I think one needs to make some really big assumptions about this guy in order to question his motives and call him clueless. And, even if he is clueless, and found her attractive but went about it the wrong way asking her in the wrong place at the wrong time - for the love of noGod - was the error of such monumental proportions that he is now to be considered a woman-hating sexist pig? From his clumsy approach, he sounds more like a nerd or a geek who had a couple two many drinks and made a dopey attempt to get to know this chick.

So, "coming on" to a woman isn't about sex, with her? And if it is about sex with her, isn't she then sexualized?

Well, here's the thing. Women are sexual beings, and men are sexual beings. So, if interacting with a woman because one is interested in sex with that woman is "sexualizing" them, then the same would be true if women interact with a man desiring to have sex with him. The point I was trying to make is that whether one human wants to have sex with another human doesn't seem to be the issue. It's something more. Hence the word "objectification." I used the term "sexualization/objecification," because objectification seems to be part of the equation.

And, yes, coming on to a woman usually is about sex with her, but so what?

Asking a woman for coffee may be, but isn't necessarily, about having sex with her. And, two, even if it was, if someone politely asks you up for coffee, and you say no, and go on your merry way, exactly what has happened that a grown woman shouldn't be able to handle?

[Gallstones]

I'm a woman whose view of the situation varies from some others I've read. Most of my thoughts on it have been posted at RatSkep.

So, had it been you in the lift, you wouldn't have thought him an insensitive dickhead? Or you wouldn't be disturbed by his behaviour?

Either way, fair enough, your personal view is as valid as anyone's. You seem to be in a small minority of women however. I am not claiming that you are wrong, merely that I would reasonably expect such behaviour to creep out most women and so, personally, I would not act similarly for that reason. If I ever were to drunkenly proposition a minor celebrity in a hotel lift, I would consider myself a dickhead for not appreciating that fact.

Point of fact: there was no overt proposition - he asked her if she would like some coffee. That's fairly important here. If I walk up to a woman who unbeknownst to me has no interest in being hit on, and I say, "Hey baby, wanna go back to my place and bump uglies?" That would be creepy and inappropriate. If I walk up to her and say, "Hello, my name is so-and-so. I saw you from across the room, and I wondered if I could buy you a drink [or cup of coffee]" - that does not appear in the least to be creepy, and I don't think it would matter if the words were said in an elevator. But, apparently, I don't get it.

Point of fact---as we do have her video as evidence--there was no hysteria or overreaction either. Well, except by Dawkins and the internet phenomenon engendered by Dawkins' remarks.

[Coito ergo sum]

For the record, regardless of context, I--me--am not going to the hotel room of some guy I don't know and never met. I don't care what he says he wants to do there with me.

So, then if a guy asks you there for coffee, and you say no thanks, and he goes off on his merry way, has something misogynistic happened?

[Animavore]

No Irish guy would say "bump uglies" either.

Not even lilly-livered, collar-popping, Foxrock Southeners on the WKD.